A friend emailed to ask me for my thoughts on the "JournoList," a question prompted by Michael Calderone's short but suggestive report in yesterday's Politico. Calderone's piece is for the most part a lament about the secrecy maintained by the members of the list, which is particularly impressive given that many of its core members are prolific bloggers who are inclined to share many, if not all, details of their intellectual life. (I know the feeling.) In my friend's view, the news about the JList was a "nothingburger," as these lists are pretty common. While the JList is definitely inside baseball -- or rather, inside inside baseball -- I disagree: the JournoList is a "somethingburger" full of interestingness.
After asking why the JList was kept off-the-record, founder Ezra Klein, a strategically savvy blogger who is deeply interested in how policy ideas emerge and spread, gave a straightforward and compelling answer.
In an e-mail, Klein said he understands that the JList's off-the-record rule "makes it seems secretive." But he insisted that JList discussions have to be off the record in order to "ensure that folks feel safe giving off-the-cuff analysis and instant reactions."
The idea of a safe space in which you can be confident that your words won't be manipulated by "the other side" for partisan advantage is straightforwardly attractive. And yet that raises the question of how to set the boundaries. As a minor-league policy wonk, I find the idea of taking part in off-the-record conversations with eminent historians, economists, and reporters very attractive -- yet I was told early on that I wasn't eligible, for the excellent and obvious reason that my sympathies aren't generally on the left. Though I could agree to the off-the-recordness of the JList, I'd inevitably discuss its contents with conservative friends and collaborators, like The Atlantic's own Ross Douthat.
This raises the question -- why is it that a number of journalists at so-called "mainstream" outlets, like Time, do pass muster? As Calderone asks, is the JList
Proof of a vast liberal media conspiracy?
The answer, in my view, is obviously no. But the JList does offer an interesting lens through which to view how the ideological landscape has changed in recent years. Granted, this is a small group. At the same time, the number of writers and thinkers who influence public debate is also very small, and JList represents a significant swathe of them.
A few years ago, I was at a party and my friend, then a producer for a television news program, was berated, mildly, by a friendly acquaintance for the fact that the producer's show rarely if ever had "outspoken progressives" on the program. Rather, the show would have journalists from Time and other mainstream outlets to represent a left-of-center position. In his view, this was a travesty: though these reporters might hold liberal views, they were not truly outspoken progressives, as they felt constrained by mainstream media conventions. He was particularly peeved because he had recently paid for media training. As it happens, the outspoken progressive was seriously considered for an appearance on the weekly program, but he hadn't made his way on the show just yet. That said, his conviction concerning the weaknesses of the media mainstream made a deep impression, and I wondered at the time if he might be right. Less than a month later, the outspoken progressive was hired by one of the country's major metropolitan dailies, where he is a star reporter.
To some extent, one's position in the media ecosystem -- mainstream or activist or partisan -- leads to a real change in worldview. On the JList, the movement activists will often sharply criticize the reporters, and the reporters fire back. Yet these arguments are heated precisely because there is an assumption that everyone is fundamentally on the same side, namely that of intelligence and decency. You might think that veterans of left-of-center outlets, like the aforementioned outspoken progressive, might share the activist sense of outrage against conventions of objectivity. Generally speaking, that's not true. Rather, the veterans take on the views of their older colleagues. Somewhere there is an interesting lesson in the power of institutions, and how they reproduce sensibilities.
This leads us to an important conceit -- one that, by the way, makes a lot of sense to me: that the conventions of objectivity undermine real objectivity, which requires weighing in on whether or not one side is telling the truth, or rather which side is coming closer to the mark. Over time, older reporters have come closer to the activist way of looking at things, though the two camps are still fairly far apart.
This hints at another valuable function of the JList: because of its multigenerational composition, it builds and deepens bonds between well-placed elder statesmen and stateswomen and young whippersnappers, thus facilitating reporting and traditional networking. Editors can find freelancers, writers find sources, younger writers find mentors. The right has tried to mimic this social ecology for years through well-funded internship programs, etc. The JList is far more organic, so much so that even its members often don't appreciate the value of its networking function.
I'm most interested in the extent to which JList serves a disciplining function, i.e., the extent to which it keeps self-identified members of the ideological left "in line." After talking to a number of friends, and after observing its workings from a distance, I've concluded that the JList has virtually no disciplining functon. It is a forum for robust debate, not a tool for forming a tightly-knit Leninist cadre. So what's not to like? I only wish right-of-center types could form something equally fun and stimulating and influential.







OK, let me get this straight. A collection of liberal to left bloggers have created a high-volume discussion group with a bunch of eminent historians, economists, and reporters.
Tell me, suppose you were actually able to create a listserv and get a bunch of center to right bloggers on it. How many of those reporters who are spending time on 'JournoList' would a) join your listserv and b) actually spend time on it comparable to the time they are currently spending on JournoList? Or would you get different reporters? Considering the known political demographics of reporters, would you get as many? If you don't think so, what are the implications of that?
Also, why it's called 'JournoList' and not 'Leftist Blogger List'?
You'd have to be pretty much awash in the KoolAid to imagine that any of the collection of "journalists" listed are not of the Lefty persuasion.
To me far and away the biggest unintended benefit provided by the Obama campaign was to expose the media as the Left wing lackeys that they are.
Liberal/progressive are today words whose original meanings have changed radically (pun on purpose.) Today's L/P journalist is yesterday's Walter D. at the NYT.
Joke stolem from DFW: Two J-SchoolFish are swimming in the deep BLUE sea. They pass by an older fish who calls out, "Good morning boys. How's the water?" The two J-SchoolFish smile, say "Good," and keep on swimming. A little while later one J-SchoolFish turns to the other and says,"What's water?"
The bias isn't the problem Marc. The problem is the constant and entirely dishonest DENIAL that almost everyone at the "mainstream" media outlets leans left and it effects their work both subtly and overtly. Most the time these people won't even admit they lean left. They are liars Marc and should be called out as such. This secret clan makes it look even worse.
I know a lot of people in the press and have long been saying that almost all of them are lefties in the closet who just pretend their worldview and the Democratic version of the world is THEE news, not just an interpretation of the news but the ONLY way to see events and the only things that are important. It's dishonest, it's a shame and it's costing them revenue and public trust and yet they continue to refuse to do anything about their problem.
Marc,
LOL. Yours is one of the most self-serving posts I have seen on this topic. In the free-marketplace of ideas--which is the underlying justification for free speech and the First Amendment--JournList is insider trading and fraud. Ideas are supposed to compete, clash, and contend--not be secretly coordinated by the ideologically like-minded and then foisted onto the public discussion as supposedly spontaneous thought.
And given the Ezra Klein justification that you find so stragihtforward and compelling, what possible reason can there be for keeping the membership of the listserv secret?
There is a reason the press is so suspect among the public. You are as self-serving as any other power group, but much more pompous, self-important, and sententious.
Ironically enough, the responses here demonstrate in embryo one of the reasons certain lists tend to be fairly "closed."
As anybody who's ever participated in enough mailing lists, blog comment threads, or other public Internet forums knows, these have what we techies call
a "signal to noise ratio," which is more or less a measure of how useful they are to those interested in the exchange and analysis of ideas, rather than the (admittedly addictive) joy of argument online.
It seems that where anybody can post, discussion of liberals and the media inevitably attract a slew of rather useless moans from unthinking conservatives
about the allegedly "liberal" mainstream press, how they're wrong and not representing the public, and, well, that's about it, really. (See above for examples.) These sorts of assertions tend to be arguable at best (I still haven't figured out whether Fox news is liberal or not mainstream), and the posters are not really attempting to engage in any sort of meaningful debate.
If I, as a liberal, wish to engage in any sort of serious debate about, say, how good a job Obama is doing at the moment, the last thing I want is to do it in a forum where reasonable comment is going to be drowned out amongst the heckling. Even more important, I need to do it in a forum where people are attempting to understand my thoughts, rather than their sole purpose divising any way possible to interpret them such that they can attack and deride them.
Thus, it's no suprise that people whose job it is to follow these things are going to put together limited forums where they can do this. It's not that they
particularly care to be secret; it's that it's the only way to get to a state on the Internet where you can converse the way you would at a dinner party.
The "signal to noise" ratio is an excellent reason for restricting who can write to a forum. It provides no rationale for restricting who can read the forum.
The impact of the Jlist on the debate about liberal bias in the MSM seems minimal at best. Mostly, the Jlist seems like a red herring in that debate.
However, even if it isn't some sinister cabal, doesn't it still pose a danger? Don't the rules of group polarization still hold? Won't members of a like-minded group move toward more extreme position? (This is regardless of which side of the debate they start on.)
In this sense groups like the Jlist, be they right or left, can cause harm. This is particularly true when those who hold power participate.
Someone should send Ezra Klein (and Reihan) a copy of Bill Bishop's book The Big Sort.
the outspoken progressive was hired by one of the country's major metropolitan dailies, where he is a star reporter
Dude, I wonder if you actually read what you write?
I've concluded that the JList has virtually no disciplining functon. It is a forum for robust debate, not a tool for forming a tightly-knit Leninist cadre
You read the Kaus piece with the email thread, right?
Care to revise that robust debate statement?
Wait...what??
First, you stated "I was told early on that I wasn't eligible, for the excellent and obvious reason that my sympathies aren't generally on the left." Fine. This leaves the impression is that the group (JList) is there only for those with sympathies to the political left.
Yet, immediately following that, you make a long argument which could be summed up as 'This helps foster journalism,' with specifics such as:
"This hints at another valuable function of the JList: because of its multigenerational composition, it builds and deepens bonds between well-placed elder statesmen and stateswomen and young whippersnappers, thus facilitating reporting and traditional networking."
and
"It is a forum for robust debate, not a tool for forming a tightly-knit Leninist cadre."
Where, I wonder, is the debate when a stated criteria for membership is a certain political outlook? Even if the debate runs along the lines of "We should do X for Y amount" contrasted with "We should do X for Z amount", that misses arguments that "We should NOT do X at all." To use Curt Sampson's example: If you wish to debate "how well" President Obama is doing, but only wish to do so where the opinions come out as "Fair or better," isn't that completely missing the point. Debating "how much" without including a viewpoint of "not doing it at all/do something else instead" can easily lead to an echo chamber, not a debating society.
Even if this is not a "Vast Wing Conspiracy," it's cliquishness and message-dissemination functions don't place it in a very good light - especially if objectivity, and not political purity, is supposed to be the standard.