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Apr 17 2009, 6:49 pm by Marc Ambinder

Judge Skeptical Of State Secrets Privilege For NSA/Charity Case

The Obama administration suffered a bit of a legal setback this afternoon: a federal judge in California rejected the administration's assertion of the state secrets privilege in the civil suit brought by an Islamic charity that was allegedly subjected to illegal NSA surveillance.  The order, in Al-Haramain v. Bush, requires the government to come up with a way to safeguard the classified information it plans to present in the NSA's defense by May 8. Judge Vaughn Walker noted that the government has elsewhere made provisions for the discussion of Top Secret/SCI information. It so happens that the plaintiffs attorneys have been cleared to that level.  Walker crafted his order narrowly to prevent the government from appealing it immediately to the Ninth Circuit. On May 8, it will be interesting to see whether the administration presents a plan for safeguarding classified info -- or whether it re-asserts the state secrets privilege.
Order.April%2017.pdf

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Comments (63)

welovetheUSA

Obama watch out America this man is out to destroy your country.

Kele (Replying to: welovetheUSA)

The country is more than half destroyed already. All of which took place before January 21, 2009. It all began with the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the deterioration has proceeded steadily since. The US is a mere shell of its former self and is, as history has told me (at least)in the process of moving from its position in the drivers seat of the 'bus', out into the aisle and to the back of the bus. We recently saw a very similar occurrence with a place called the Soviet Union. Memories are very short among the ignorant masses in all societies that get too big for their britches. As George Bernard Shaw once stated..."The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from it". And he was absolutely right.

electricninja (Replying to: Kele)

Oh you can do better than that. The US started going downhill when paper money was unconstitutionally justified as legal tender, then the New Deal was unconstitutionally justified as wealth transfer, then the 14th Amendment was unconstitutionally justified to allow anchor babies. And on and on.

People cry about torture and warrantless wiretapping. Who will cry about arbitrary presidential control over the IT industry and warrantless snooping of now-federalized medical records? And why does Bush think history will vindicate him if he laid the foundations for a totalitarian state that Obama happily builds upon? Is he that stupid?

Kele (Replying to: electricninja)

Excellent points. The real value of US currency started going down immediately after the Federal Reserve System was put into place in 1913. Absolutely true. The US Dollar has a 'real value' today that is about 98% less than it was back then. The removal of the gold standard during the magnificent Nixon administration accelerated the decline to a certain extent. And it continues to go down. One small illustration is the former 'nickel candy bar' that was once over an ounce in weight is now about 89 cents and its weight is less than half what it was when it only cost a nickel.

And yes. Back when a court order was required to enter a home for any reason existed, the average citizen could actually consider his home his castle. No longer. The average citizen is, today, nothing more than a vassal or slave to the system and he or she can be hauled off to a 'holding area' of some sort without any reason and only if the controllers have a 'suspicion' that the person is guilty of something. And they can be held there for an unspecified length of time.

That reminds me of the stories my forebears told me about what people of Europe went through during the Weimar Republic and, later, during the reign of the Third Reich.

I won't bother to go into some of the facts surrounding the Romes of Nero and Caligula. Almost nobody would know what I was talking about. But if I asked about what is going on in the pages of the National Enquirer or on the boob tube, well that's another story. They all know about all of that very important stuff. They know who is sleeping with whom in Hollywood tonight!
Essential information for those interested in how to survive an economic, social and political collapse. Right?

jjv (Replying to: Kele)

There is something very seriously wrong with you, my friend. If you actually believe a comparison between the Soviet Union and America in any state of the development of either country is in order.

You are obviously the product of a public school education in America and had your head filled with left wing nonsense and indoctrination.

For your information, Communism is responsible for the deaths of over 120 MILLION people in Russia alone, all executed by the ruthless regimes who brook no dissent, will accept NO criticism and basically do whatever they want with the help of their State controlled media paving the way by painting the leader as a genius, and as such incapable of wrong. Sound familiar?

YuvbinDuped (Replying to: jjv)

You gotta be kidding, right? Just how many human lives have been snuffed out at our hands? Through our government America has aided and abetted in wiping out millions of human beings. We have assasinated elected leaders of other countries and installed puppet governments in others. Our leaders are currently being run by the illegal and unconstitutional Federal Reserve Banksters in tandem with the CFR. Just because you THINK you actually played a role in electing a president doesn't make it so.

His comparison is well under way as collapse is imminent unless we allow our financial system to correct itself on its own and STOP creating money out of thin air.

The Federal Reserve is a corrupt outfit. Even during its forced formation people such as Congressman Charles A Lindbergh and Louis McFadden were speaking out about what an illegal and corrupt bunch of Banksters they were. (Go to "banking quotes" and read them).

It's time to Push for H.R. 1207 the Federal Reserve Transparency Act and Audit the Federal Reserve Bank.

CALL YOUR STATE REPRESENTATIVES asap!


gO TO WWW.RONPAUL.COM FOR MORE INFORMATION AND THE LIST OF STATE REPS.

Kele (Replying to: jjv)

I do not live in America. Not North, South or Central. I live in a part of the world that is part of the USA and done so totally illegally in 1893 when the US Marines came in here and overthrew the legal, internationally recognized sovereign Constitutional Monarchy of Hawai'i. So I don't consider myself an American in any sense of the word. I wouldn't insult myself in doing so.

If you remember (which I doubt) one of the main reasons that the Soviet Union collapsed was that they went bankrupt too (as the US has done) and when Gorby went to Yeltsy and said that more rubles had to be printed to get more cash into the system, Yeltsy, in his wisdom, said 'NYET'! And that was that. All of the surrounding states became independent once again just as Hawai'i will do when a similar thing happens to the current occupying illegal entity realizes that it can't do much, if anything, about it. There is something seriously wrong with you AND your nation. It is un-educated, full of pill-popping, booze guzzling, boob tubing addicts who don't know much about anything except baubles, bangles and beads. On top of that it has become,
unlike in past decades, a nation of rude people who give the two finger salute to anyone who the finger wavers think is of lower caste. Lots of road rages, supermarket rages, people becoming unemployed by the thousands every day and now entering a DEPRESSION the likes of which will make the last one in the period from 1929 to 1954 pale by comparison. Anyone who cannot see that must be of skid row mentality or they were born with some level of ignoramus-itus.

I was just over there recently taking care of an old and dying friend. What I saw totally appalled me. I got the heck out as soon as my job was done and my friend went on to 'Heaven' and out of that quagmire of deceit, corruption and egregiousness. You can have it. I wouldn't insult my trash can with a square inch of the place.

Kele (Replying to: jjv)

Forgot to ask you why you didn't mention the fascists. Only the Communists. You are neglecting the right wingers and I'm sure you must be aware of those after 8 years of the 'Mission Accomplished' rules of the game. Borrow, borrow, borrow, invade a foreign, sovereign nation, displace hundreds of thousands, cause the deaths of nearly 5,000 American soldiers with some of them coming home and killing themselves etc. I'd like to hear your opinions on those minor details. Surely you must be aware of the effects of such behavior on the current economic disaster(s) that are now taking place in unprecedented proportions. Only presenting one side of the story is not being very 'Fair and Balanced'.

Flippy (Replying to: welovetheUSA)

Kele is living in a dreamworld - although, I don't doubt the more serious aspects of social and moral decline started in the 60s. But it had nothing to do with Kennedy's assasination.

But Kele's comments suggest that Kennedy was some kind of saviour, which he was not. Kennedy rose to power because of family wealth derived from bootlegging alcohol during the Prohibition.

The fact is that private wealth is all that matters in America, the "public" is like the toxic waste dump for the follies of the wealthy and marketing guinea pigs for retailers and other snake oil salesmen including politicians. If you think the government is here to "protect you" you deserve everything you get.

That's why it was so freakin' sad to see all those poor hopeless faces turned up to "Obama" who, now, is cozying up to the likes of Chavez and taking America down the fast lane to socialism and ruin.

Kele (Replying to: Flippy)

I prefer the dreamworld of Oceania/Polynesia to that of the midsection of the North American continent. The dreams I had while there were nightmares. I'd prefer to avoid them at all costs in whatever time I have left on this planet.

mrine2

Any more questions about why the USA wanted to use military tribunals instead of trials in open court?

brad jenks (Replying to: mrine2)

Andrew McCarthy was hand picked to prosecute the hardest terrorist case in 1993 …. the trial of the Blind Sheikh in the New York City attempted bombing of landmarks plot..

I copied this from the first paragraph of Chapter 24 from Andrew McCarthy’s book Willful Blindness A Memoir of the Jihad.

"No description can do justice to how intense, rewarding, and preposterous a terrorism trial is. The patina of danger and death hang over the proceedings. It is a thrill and a source of patriotic pride to observe the world’s greatest legal system grant the full flower of due process to our committed enemies and see them, nonetheless, brought to heed. It is, further, a counterintuitive absurdity to observe the world’s greatest legal system grant the full flower of due process to our committed enemies, with the result that we can neutralize only minute percentage of them while surrendering boatloads of intelligence to make the rest of them more efficient at killing us."

That is why stepping away from tribunals is going backwards...

student1776

Bush and Cheney took he heat and protected the country. Obama is grabbing cheap popularity but is too weak to take the heat to protect the country. The Obama administration cannot even bring itself to use the word terrorist. In their effort to such up to their Eurosocialist leftist constitutents these weaklings will fail to defend our ability to protect ourselves. The popularity of their pussillanimous behavior will be forgotten when the inevitable ill consequence of ignoring the Islamofascists comes home to roost.

Wulfgang (Replying to: student1776)

If by "taking the heat" you mean using the US constitution as toilet paper, grabbing near dictatorial power, committing war crimes - the documentation of which is now on the front page of every paper in the world - suspending habeus-corpus, shredding the Posse Comitatus Act, trampling states rights, violating the civil rights of countless (all?) Americans by employing Stasi-like surveillance techniques on all of our electronic transmissions, and presiding over the largest growth in the size of the federal government and increase in the national debt in US history then yeah, you're right.

Bang-up job.

WOLFCSM (Replying to: Wulfgang)

[B]First, have you read the Justice Department memos?{/B] [COLOR=Red]War crimes? I doubt it.[/COLOR] I can not buy into the idea that a captured terrorist, that never set foot into the States, and that is trying to kill soldiers of the United States has the same rights as a Citizen. National Debt: I don't suppose you have read or understand what the current Administration proposes for a debt each of the next few years. 2X and then 3X the current National Debt. Lastly, surveillance; I guess that if you have nothing to hide, you had little to worry about. If however, you were talking to known terrorists - you might have had reason to worry.

Most citizens of the United States have little or no idea what the Constitution says about anything. Take for instance the fantasy that the people elect the President - read the Constitution to find the actual answer (not the popular vote). The Bill of Rights say some pretty specific things. The Courts have interpreted them to mean much more and possibly very differently than they were written to. Again, probably need to read the Constitution and understand it before talking about someone using it for "toilet paper".

SonoranDesert (Replying to: WOLFCSM)

Terrorism is merely the excuse for the government to spy on its own citizens. It's funny how many right wing groups didn't bat an eye when political protesters such as environmental groups where be watched, but now that they are the groups protesting and thus the target of surveillance their constitutional rights are being trampled.

Where's my 'tini? (Replying to: WOLFCSM)

Oh, no - most "right wing whack jobs" did complain about it...Just like we did under Clinton...it's simply that no one listened then, and no one is listening now.....

jjv (Replying to: Wulfgang)

LOL, wonderful talking points. lib. And all of them completely unsupported by a single fact. If it weren't for talking points fed you by your masters you would be totally unable to speak a word.

Habe (Replying to: Wulfgang)

Is that what it takes to preserve both our national security and sovereignty? Then that's what it takes. Do you enjoy the freedoms & privileges of living in the United States? Afraid of having your electronic transmissions being reviewed? Do you live in the U.S.? Are you one of the "patriots" accusing Bush of invading Iraq for oil? Do you fight over legalese written by attorneys for attorneys for "constitutional" integrity and accept your twin towers being attacked? The NSA can see whatever they need to see of mine if it protects the life and longevity of this nation. Since documentation is in every paper in the world giving "evidence" of suspending habeus-corpus, then those countries who've documented the evidence of Saddam's possession of WMD's shouldn't be a stretch for you to believe, but I'm sure you don't and didn't believe "those papers". Time to be a man! Quit fighting over words and do something to actually make this country better!

nyghtrunner (Replying to: Wulfgang)

I'm just curious... You seem to be a little annoyed at Bush for many things... So let's look at your arguments:

1. Constitution as "toilet paper" - I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to. If you're talking about all the bailouts, you'll get no argument from me. But I'm going to assume you mean things like FISA and the Patriot Act? Well, FISA was signed into law by President Jimmy Carter (D) in 1978, and upheld by the courts and every president since then. The Patriot act was an extension of those powers to be allowed to monitor things like internet traffic (as Al Gore hadn't invented it by 1978). Or maybe you're referring to Guantanamo? Well, I'm sorry, but enemy combatants (or suspects) that are not legal aliens of this country HAVE NO PROTECTION under our Constitution. I could continue to guess at what you mean, but that's pointless.

2. Committing "War Crimes" - I'd again like to know what you are referring to. Abu Ghirab? Well, I can't say I agree with some of the abuses there, but I seriously doubt any of that was the intention of Bush et all. Guantanamo? Well, from what I understand, that's not such a bad place. Heck, even Miss Universe loved it there. Torture? I'm sorry, but if there is every reason to believe that there is imminent threat on AMERICANS, and time is of the essence, I feel that some amount of torture is justified to aid in the prevention of that threat. Or does the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" suddenly not apply? I mean, what could be more socialistic/communistic? At least we weren't beheading civvies live on the internet for the world to watch...

3. Suspending Habeus Corpus - Uhhh... did I miss something? When is it suspending it when foreign non-nationals have no rights to it in the first place? Insofar as I know, the only time it's been done was during the Civil War, by President Lincoln. Was he a war monger not concerned with the greater good?

4. Trampling States Rights - Well, I don't know that I'll disagree with that there... However, every administration has pretty much done that since they sort of left out the 10th Amendment during the New Deal and FDR. Ever heard of the Wickard Case? Talk about trampling of rights... There's a lot that the current Federal Government does, and has been doing for years, that pretty much shred the idea of the 10th Amendment and States Rights. Know anything about the Dred Scott case? How about Roe v. Wade? Or do you really think legalization of abortion (not even going to get into the "murder of innocent" argument here) at the federal level tramples the rights of the states to decide for themselves, as the founders envisioned...

5. Violating Civil Rights of "countless (all?) Americans" - Are we back to FISA and the Patriot Act again? If so, see above. If not, what other rights do you feel have been personally violated by Bush?

6. Government Growth - You are a fool to make this argument. You want to talk about expansion of Fed power, you should really look at the New Deal (One of the more disgusting violations of this is STILL the Wickard v. Filburn Case). Or maybe the Great Society with LBJ? The "War on Poverty", the "War on Drugs", and let's not neglect to mention President Obama's administration. Were you aware that, despite fighting on 2 fronts, Sept 11th, the .com bubble, and then bailout-o-mania, that the federal deficit DECREASED EVERY YEAR from '04-'07? The only reason it did not decrease again in '08 was due to Stimulus, Bailouts, TARP, etc... So it was back up last year, which stinks. But Obama is going to QUADRUPLE last years spending, which was heinous, before he halves it "By the end of his (first) term". Ok, so let's take the $410 billion we were in the red last year (The largest deficit during Bush's 2 terms), multiply it by 4, and we have 1.64 trillion. That's just THIS YEAR (Although Obama's admin has actually floated the figure 1.75 Trillion, but that's neither here nor there). If you add up the Bush deficit from all 8 years, you get close to the figure of $1.6 trillion. Now, I'm not happy about that. But let's look at Obama's figures for his first term. Year 1, $1.75 trillion. Year 2, about 1.15 trillion, Year 3, only $850 billion. Year 4, we're finally back down to the ball park of Bush's highest deficit of $440 billion (this past year). I say ballpark because it's actually still about $150 billion more than that. So Bush, despite all the wars, 9/11, .com bubble, put us another 1.6 trillion in the red. Obama, who has "don't mess up" duty with Iraq, 1 war, and "The Greatest Financial Crisis since the Great Depression" (I seriously have my doubts... We're not even to Carter levels yet) is PROMISING $4.34 trillion in new debt. That's by his admin's estimates, so I bet they're lowballing. When is the government EVER right about how much money they are going to spend? **Interesting factoid of the day: it takes 31,688.088 years for 1 trillion seconds to go by. =)

7. Bush's "near dictatorial power" - I wholeheartedly disagree with this. If it were true, we'd have heard talks about getting rid of the 22nd Amendment. Bush would have declared martial law or something to suspend elections due to a "time of crisis" (like the "Overseas Contingency Operation") until such a time as the threat was no longer present. He would have done EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER to STAY IN OFFICE. If you ask me, he actually seemed to be quite happy to be stepping down. But then, what can you expect after a solid 8 years of attacks? I mean, in 2001, during his first inauguration, he faced protesters. The 2k election went to the Supreme Court (I'd like to add that it was Al Gore who would not concede, and FORCED the courts to make a decision on who would be the president. So please, do shut up about how the courts "appointed" Bush. As soon as it was taken to the courts, that was the ONLY possible outcome!), and because of that, and the following 2 years (9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq) sort of doomed his presidency among those who would like to "just get along" with people who want to kill us.

So, if ever you want to argue along these lines again, please, come prepared with some numbers to back up your ranting.

Chris A Wisc (Replying to: nyghtrunner)

God Bless the Truth that will set us free!!! Thank you nyghtrunner, I look forward to future post from you.

student1776 (Replying to: Wulfgang)

Wulfgang, your thinking is sloppy. The first responsibility of the commander in chief is to protect the persons and property of the homeland. Bush and Cheney completely shut down attempts to kill US nationals in our homeland after 9/11. Hopefully Obama will be as successful. If his policies of pretending that Islamofascism no longer exists, bowing to the king of Saudi Arabia, and disarming our anti-terror forces work out - great - but if a successful effort by the Islamofascists kills American citizens in America then he should be impeached for dereliction of duty. We will see and I think both hope that this works out. Bush respected the Constitution for Americans but did not extend our protections to enemy combatants. Nor should he have - no President has. We did not give habeus corpus to the captured Japanese or Nazis let alone to irregular forces that were not signatories to the Geneva Convensions and who chop off the heads of our soldiers when they capture them. The Army was not used in a martial law situation in the US nor was it used to replace regular police forces - hence your Posse Comitatus Act accusation is just ignorant and wrong. Bush-Cheney could have done more to protect States rights - like trying to limit federal power back to the Enumerated Powers but unfortunately like all the Presidents since Roosevelt they failed to do so. The surveillance of electronic communications was focused on overseas communications. Some of the signal routings from overseas look through the US so the intercepts occurred here but the surveillance was directed at overseas transmissions. The singular exception was calls from known or suspected overseas terrorists to numbers in the US. Perhaps you are such a fool that you think that our government should allow Osama Bin Laden to place a call to a supporter in the US and do nothing. I disagree. On a percentage basis Bush Cheney did not preside over the largest increase in the size of the federal government or the national debt of any President - not even close to Roosevelt. I agree that it would have been more desirable for Bush-Cheney to have restricted federal spending more intensively. Their excuse was the post 9/11 recession but both fiscal and monetary policy was too expansive. Further while they were correct in opposing the FannieMae and FreddieMac driven increase of subprime mortgages and while they were disempowered in restricting them by the unfortunate election of Democratic majorities in the House and Senate, you are correct that they should have been much more aggressive in shutting down the government driven expansion of subprime loand. By percentage and absolute terms, however, the Messiah Obama is about to massively exceed the growth of federal government to a ruinous level. My impression is that Obama is launching a classic debasement of the currency in order to fund the nanny state wonderland he sees in his socialist mind. This will bring inflationary disaster. Sadly, the experiment is being run. By 2012 it will be very clear whether I am right or wrong. Hope to be wrong but I am expecting an Argentine level of inflation. The quote below is attributed to Sir Alex Fraser Tyler (1747-1813) and appears eerily relevant to the situation we currently find ourselves in.
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

Constitutional Lawyer

Any one even somewhat familar with security classifications knows that just because someone has a clearance, does not mean they are allowed access to the information. In simple terms, it does not matter that the lawyers have a TS/SCI clearance. Moreover, in what country's legal system can a judge craft an order that does not allow an appeal? It cetainly is not in the American legal system. As a wise man once said, "I fear for the republic".

SoWhat (Replying to: Constitutional Lawyer)

I feel for you. The way this administration is heading we won't have constitution much longer for lawyers to study. You are right about the clearance too. I once held one and it doesn't mean squat unless someone up the food chain thinks you need to know something.

Dredd (Replying to: Constitutional Lawyer)

Chief Judge Walker is very well versed in federal law and seeks to avoid delay by frivolous appeal.

Interlocutory orders are generally not candidates for appeal.

In general only final orders are subjects for appeal.

There are some exceptions such as qualified immunity, and the like, so he is attempting to guide the case expeditiously.

That is why the Judicial Council put all these many cases under his care.

superdave

And now he is yuking it up with his buddy Chavez, talking to Cuba, and dictating to Israel. It is starting to look alot like the end times prophesy. What will happen when Israel takes out Iran's nukes?

Wulfgang (Replying to: superdave)

@ superdave

"And now he is yuking it up with his buddy Chavez, talking to Cuba, and dictating to Israel. It is starting to look alot like the end times prophesy. What will happen when Israel takes out Iran's nukes?"

1) The world isn't some message board where you can just people you dislike or disagree with on ignore. Talking is always the first step toward a solution.

2) Israel, for all intents and purposes, dictate to the US. I know, it's ridiculous, but that's the way it is.

3) Iran's nukes? What have you been smoking? They don't have any and won't anytime soon.

SoWhat (Replying to: Wulfgang)

@ Wulfgang

1) So is being able to put together a sentence. Let's see, we were talking to Japan on Dec. 7, 1941, The Brits were talking to Germany in 1936. That worked out well. Seems like Talking is more likely to be the first step to getting into a war.

2) If they dictate we sure don't listen very well do we. They have been trying to get us to do something about Iran for the last three years. Maybe they were dictating and we didn't get the memo.

3) It was the assessment of the War Department in 1946 that Japan was incapable of attacking Pearl Harbor with torpedo's so we didn't bother to defend against them. We were lucky and we won those wars. Interestingly, the government kept classified material classified while we were still at war. Now there is an idea.

jjv (Replying to: SoWhat)

Talking to an indoctrinated, programmed liberal is like trying to teach a rock to sing.

My German Shepherd has more basic common sense then do these pathetic Lemmings. I'm surprised they don't all change their names to Neville Chamberlain in honor of his truly great accomplishment in 1938 of getting the Germans to sign a non aggression treaty...oh wait....

arial (Replying to: SoWhat)

Couldn't agree with you more.

Sanity4801 (Replying to: SoWhat)

I’ve seen several conservative bloggers make sweeping and mindless generalizations comparing President Obama’s initiatives to start dialogs with Venezuela, Cuba, and Iran as appeasement liken to Britain’s Prime Minister Chamberlain to Hitler’s Germany and U.S. Diplomatic efforts toward Imperial Japan prior to the U.S. finally entering World War II—which by the way was negotiation not appeasement. All this totally hypocritical twisting of history and the facts—in hopes the American people are to stupid or lazy to read history or watch it on the history channel--just demonstrates how warped, arbitrary, hysterical and blatantly disruptive they are choosing to be towards the Obama Administration’s efforts at finding real solution’s to the problems left by the Bush Administration. It also proves how bankrupt they are of new ideas and how cowardly and fearful they are of any idea not of their own narrow world view.

Unless I missed the latest breaking news from the “no bias” Fox News Channel, and my buddy Rush Limbaugh, neither Iran, Venezuela or Cuba has made recent claims to the geographic territory of their neighbors, let alone invaded and occupied them and killed millions. Iran’s most recent war (from 1980-1988) was against Sadam’s Iraq. For Republican’s with conveniently short memories, Sadam at that time was strongly supported by President Ronald Reagan—the idol of today’s Republican Conservatives. Yes, conservatives Sadam Hussein—the horrible, murdering dictator who just years earlier had killed thousand of Kurds--was one of Ronald Reagan’s best buddies in the Middle East and was routinely praised by Reagan for Sadam’s efforts to fight Iranian Muslim fundamentalism; even though it was Iraq that invaded Iran. Conservative media blowhards, appealing to the deep-seated biases of their uniformed base, never mention this when they accuse Obama of undermining the U.S. with his call for a break from the old tired name-calling and antagonistic policies and move on to more adult behavior. He’s offered his hand; it’s up to Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, and North Korea to step up to the plate. If they choose not to, that is their loss and American’s gain. American’s gain because we have once again began to appear to the world as a country that was the first to take the moral and political high ground. Not through unnecessary bullying, arrogance, and impotent remarks that scare no one In recent conservative blogs, I’ve seen several conservative bloggers make sweeping and mindless generalizations comparing President Obama’s initiatives to start dialogs with Venezuela, Cuba, and Iran as appeasement liken to Britain’s Prime Minister Chamberlain to Hitler’s Germany and U.S. Diplomatic efforts toward Imperial Japan prior to the U.S. finally entering World War II—which by the way was negotiation not appeasement. All this totally hypocritical twisting of history and the facts—in hopes the American people are to stupid or lazy to read history or watch it on the history channel--just demonstrates how warped, arbitrary, hysterical and blatantly disruptive they are choosing to be towards the Obama Administration’s efforts at finding real solution’s to the problems left by the Bush Administration. It also proves how bankrupt they are of new ideas and how cowardly and fearful they are of any idea not of their own narrow world view.

Unless I missed the latest breaking news from the “no bias” Fox News Channel, and my buddy Rush Limbaugh, neither Iran, Venezuela or Cuba has made recent claims to the geographic territory of their neighbors, let alone invaded and occupied them and killed millions. Iran’s most recent war (from 1980-1988) was against Sadam’s Iraq. For Republican’s with conveniently short memories, Sadam at that time was strongly supported by President Ronald Reagan—the idol of today’s Republican Conservatives. Yes, conservatives Sadam Hussein—the horrible, murdering dictator who just years earlier had killed thousand of Kurds--was one of Ronald Reagan’s best buddies in the Middle East and was routinely praised by Reagan for Sadam’s efforts to fight Iranian Muslim fundamentalism; even though it was Iraq that invaded Iran. Conservative media blowhards, appealing to the deep-seated biases of their uniformed base, never mention this when they accuse Obama of undermining the U.S. with his call for a break from the old tired name-calling and antagonistic policies and move on to more adult behavior. He’s offered his hand; it’s up to Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, and North Korea to step up to the plate. If they choose not to, that is their loss and American’s gain. American’s gain because we have once again began to appear to the world as a country that was the first to take the moral and political high ground. Not through unnecessary bullying and arrogance, which by itself is an indication of fear of others, but by use of the velvet glove of diplomacy covering a fist of steel?

jimmyjames (Replying to: SoWhat)

SANITY4801

You write like a typical arrogant liberal... it appears that you think the olive branches being offered by Obama aren't like Neville's naive moves, because there isn't a clear threat with these people today. Are you really just going to overlook the countless threats to wipe Israel and 'The Great Satan' off the earth? Should we really just overlook the cries for equality and justice from people living in those countries? (If you can hear them through the state controlled media) When the Iranian president said that homosexuals don't exist in his country, and dismissed homosexuality as a western social activity, do you stop and think - I wonder what happens to homosexuals in Iran?

Moral relativism is an intellectually juvenile concept. It inevitably leads to either an acceptance of evil, or a moral division which causes it to self destruct. It should not be something Obama is trying out as the new face of The United States of America.

Where's my 'tini? (Replying to: Wulfgang)

1) You bet -- Just look at the UN

2) And why do we back ISNTreal? To our very considerable cost in lives, money and stability? Saying - as FDR did of Somoza the Elder - that "they're OUR butchers" only works when their butchery doesn't cost us anything.

3) I think you need to check your dates, there, bub - Japan had been occupied for several months in 1946. As to keeping classified material secret, that also only works when we're not abandoning our foundational principles...Sure, when the enemy is literally at the gates, all bets and kid-gloves are off - until then, hiding behind "non-tactical" secrets is just a good way to destroy any credibility and moral justification we might have - just look up "My Lai".

And for the record: We goaded Japan into attacking us, because FDR didn't have the guts to start a war on his own -- and no: don't believe me, please. Look it up.

DEF

This Judge is soon going to find out how irrelevant his judgments are. !!! The powers that Obama is Figure Heading are well organized, their pursuit is to dissolve the rights of individuals, which gives them freedom (Sovereignty), their goal is totalitarian in essence.They want to be in control of everything, they want you to have to turn to them for your every need, they want to be your all knowing, all caring god, that's why they deny God!!! For this to come to pass, your secrets must be loaded into the data base and researched to find out which form of control is best suited for you!! This will be appealed successfully, America will be transformed from Citizen ownership to government ownership, sad to say, but true!!

Dredd

Excellent.

Let me share what James Madison said about the origin of "state" secrets, which originated as military secrets.

dwainthetub

We get the government we deserve. A quarter of the U.S are halfwits,another quarter are nitwits. That's all for now, I need a tub.

mdk1960

Can this administration even order a coffee without creating a crisis, damage to the citizenry or Constitution, harm to America?

Where's my 'tini? (Replying to: mdk1960)

Pay attention, Twit-moe: Those of us capable of rubbing two nickels together knew a long time ago that both "parties" were to sides of the same coin, united in giving us 'Bread and Circuses'.

Those of us who complained about it, from Bubba through Shrub, were termed "The vast, Right-Wing Conspiracy", by the sitting Secretary of State, then derided as "Conspiracy Theorists" by Shrub.

We are now termed "racists" for daring to call Obama-Messiah on the carpet for perpetrating his bold-face lies on the campaign trail.

The "Tofu Latte" and "Bud-Wei-Ser" crowds gobbled up whatever was spoon-fed to them by the "guerrilla theatre" the morons elected...and it didn't do a hill of s**t: we're still screwed, it's getting worse by the day, and the Obama-cils are happily skipping over the ledge with the other garden-lemmings in hot pursuit.

Maybe we'll do better, next time.

Where's my 'tini? (Replying to: mdk1960)

mdk1960 - Sorry my reply was intended for R U Nuts?

R U Nuts?

Are you all completely crazy? This was a BUSH position for years!! Why all the sudden outrage? Where was your anger when W was stomping on our civil rights?

Oh, thats right...It was "UnAmerican" to talk badly about your President and your government.


Your extremism is contradictory and ignorant. Are you really surprised Republicans lost the election?

You lost. Suck it up and get organized so you don't lose the next one.

Perseus317

The judge, the ACLU, and many of the posters here are simply a bunch of America haters who are trying to bring about America's destruction. If either the classified information or the sources of information are disclosed except to people with appropriate "need-to-know" clearances, then the enemy finds out not only what we know but how we found out. All of a sudden, we have no intelligence and no way to prevent future 9/11-type events. If that were to happen, of course, the judge, the ACLU, and the other idiots would be denying any responsibility for the failure of our intelligence services and blaming... Oh Wait! Bush and the Republicans are no longer in power. I guess you would have to blame Obama and the left-wing liberals that control both houses of Congress and the administration.

When will these people realize that we are in a WAR with fanatics who would love nothing better than to kill as many Americans as possible, any way that they can. We can either use our various intelligence organizations to learn about planned attacks and try to prevent them, or we can wring our hands and look for someone to blame after the event happens.

ardvarkfart (Replying to: Perseus317)

I was going to post a comment, but Perseus317 said it so succinctly I can only add the name of a similarly superior writer (and a scholar, to boot) for your edification: Bat Ye'or (Egyptian, I think). Forget college, get educated. Bat Ye'or writes from hiding somewhere in Switzerland, of course, b/c she documents exhaustively the bloodlust of AUTHENTIC (sorry, I don't know HTML) Islam starting, oh, say, about 622 A.D. or soon thereafter. I would especially encourage "R U Nuts?" (posted above) to do a little reading, sort of on his own, so that in the future perhaps he won't open his mouth and remove all doubt, as it were.

Whoa, it's Dodgers-Rockies top-of-the-ninth with Broxton on for the save. Gotta go. Bat Ye'or. John Fahey, etc.

mdk1960

It's hilarious that the powers liberals want to arrogate to the judiciary are haunting them now. Not even a hundred days and everything in sight is a shambles. Your 'suck it up and get organized'- let's be frank- could more aptly be placed on your doorstep.

NObama2010

How stupid is Obama? He is a puppet of the (Telepromptor Axelrod the real Pres) He hates America, he wouldn't be meeting with our enemies FARC Equadorian Terrorists that are backed by the Russians and trained by Iran, Hugo Chavez, Castro, Ortega and all the commy leaders of South Amerika, but there he goes apologizing for America to our sworn enemies.
Greg Craig his White House counsul(the real VP) has represented all these South Amerikan DICTATOR thugs when they where removed in the 80's 90's, he even represeted the Hinkley who shot Reagan, and got Alien Gonzales sent back to CASTRO, he has been indoctrinated to communism when his mother died trying give him a new life in the USA.
My whole point Obozo is an street agitator commy thug dictator Marxist Socalist facsist anti American illegal alien President born in Kenya look up his alias Barry Seotoro a Muslim Citizen of Indonesia http://www.barrysoetoro.com, you will laugh where it goes! I sent a link to Obamas cousin of the same tribe Odinga, watch these videos you want Obama to be in Jail for life!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Odinga+Obama&aq=f

Private Citizen

It amazes me that some US Citizens oppose due process. America would not exist but for the rejection of Tyranny. The Declaration of Independence says it all. But some have become so partisan they will forget the lessons of King George to roll over for the next George. I appreciate the President is your commander in chief and deserving of your loyalty. There is a difference between the office and the person who holds the office. As many are quick to point out that not all who hold the office are beyond error, self interest or conspiracy. Courts need to be able to uphold your ideals and review the decisions. You cannot protect your ideals by ignoring them when they become inconvenient. That just gives your enemies the propaganda needed to oppose you by proving that USA is no different from other tyrannies.

nyghtrunner (Replying to: Private Citizen)

Mr. Private Citizen -

I don't oppose due process. But I would like to let you know that the laws that protect the rights in the Constitution apply to the Citizenry of the United States of America. As so many people are (and in some cases, quite right) quick to point out, the United States has absolutely no authority to impose its own laws and punishments to the people of other sovereign nations. As such, we have no legal grounds to prosecute, hold, interrogate, or apply "due process" rights to those people. That is why the holding of foreign combatants should be kept within the realm of the military, not the civilian courts. Once we open that door, we might as well make every person on earth a "citizen" of the United States. They should be counted in our Census, they should have representation in our government. They should get everything that the inclusion of citizenry implies. This includes, but is not limited to: Due process (I figured I'd put this one first, since it seems to be such a stickler for the left), the right to vote, the right to sue and be sued in our courts of law, the right to food stamps, the right to welfare, the right to be taxed by our nation, the right to protection by the military, etc.

If this is what you are arguing for, I'm sorry, but I must oppose. The United States Government has no binding legal premise to uphold the Constitutional rights on the rest of the world. I would not like Iran to be able to dictate my rights anymore than I think that the United States courts should be used to dictate the rights of someone in Iran. Both sovereign nations have their own sets of laws. I think it would be somewhat imperialist and not to mention quite arrogant of the US (not to mention pointless) to allow an Iraqi man to sue an Irani woman in our courts because he thinks her scarf was fixed inappropriately.

The same thing applies to war. I think it would be outrageous if the family of a someone killed in an attack or bombing should be allowed to sue the pilot of the plane for "wrongful death". Can you not see what kind of foolishness this is? You can't pick and choose when/what rights people from other countries have any more than I can. I mean, I doubt Eric Volz would get very far trying to sue Daniel Ortega over mishandling of justice, failure to present evidence, failure to take into account his human rights as defined by our constitution.

If you want the gods honest truth, enemy combatants taken by this nation do far and away MUCH better than our own people taken in other countries for whatever reason. If you want to give the protection of the US Constitution to the rest of the world, get the rest of the world to ratify the US Constitution. Then maybe we can talk.

And I love how you casually lay out how "America would not exist but for the rejection of tyranny". This is technically true, but it's so misleading. Here's a little of the Declaration of Independence you so casually refer to:

"WE hold these Truths to be self evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness--That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government"

I highly doubt you could argue that people outside of our country have given their consent to be governed by our Constitution/Government. The irony here is that you argue that they should have access to our Constitution, insofar as "due process" is concerned. If they did not ratify our documents, do not live by the rules lain down in our founding documents, and do not recognize our authority to be holding them in the first place, at what point do you think that they have given their consent?

I'm not trying to get into an ideological debate about the horrors of war, when it is or isn't necessary, or how to handle such conflicts. But it is clear to me that any nation that has not ratified our Constitution, that does not live by our laws, and does not respect our sovereignty, should not be given the protection of the Constitution. Foreign visitors to this country, who are here peacefully, are granted some protection by our Constitution, provided that they respect and obey our laws while in this country. The moment that stops, it becomes an issue of the nations and the embassies (assuming that they have an embassy here) to determine, and there are a completely different set of rules that are to be applied/followed in such circumstances. Being who we are (as a nation), many of those laws are the same as those dealing with the citizenry. But you or I have no more right to decide what rights those people have than they do. It is for the Governments involved to handle the answer to that question. Governments for which, one would hope, but is not always the case, the people governed have given their consent.

Private Citizen (Replying to: nyghtrunner)

You miss the point entirely. This case involves US Citizens so the declaration of independence is applicable.

I am a citizen of Australia and I am affected by both your legislation and your posturing. I noticed your country has tippy-toed to remove the ability of global citizens to sue Americans. You can lodge an action against any citizen or entity in the world and have it enforced but you refuse to accept judgements against your citizens, entities or government.

My country Australia, is the only country to have one of citizens to face your "military tribunal". He plea bargained to get out of Gitmo in a agreement that is blocked from any form of review. So let us look at your argument other citizens not being bound by US law.

Hicks, an Australian citizen was caught in the sovereign state of Afghanistan (simple rule:- you can only issue declarations of war between sovereign states). He was detained in Afghanistan in 2001. Arbitarily declared as an illegal combatant, he was transferred to gitmo on the basis of laws not written until after his capture. (ICCPR:- no penalty shall be applied that was not legislated at the commission of the crime).The retroactive laws were from the jurisdiction of the United States, applied to an Australian, held in Gitmo a jurisdiction created to frustrate due process. Accused of crimes committed in Afghanistan, which were not crimes within its jurisdiction. At the same time. The jurisdiction of US courts and international law did not extend to Gitmo. So the USA claims jurisdiction everywhere except Gitmo and it can review anyone actions but not its own.

It exempted itself from treaty obligations by creating a new class of detainee "illegal combatant" a definition not recognized in relevant treaties.

Yeah I am a foreigner, but the ideals of your founding fathers and the instruments that created your nation are truly aspirational. Something that all nations should strive for. Many of the nations you have difficulty with do not share this legal heritage, or had it supplanted.

You have to do more than mouth the ideals of the founding fathers in order to create their dream of a great republic. It is a pity that their descendants feel that it is easier to harangue detractors rather than follow through with those ideals.

Zyskandar A. Jaimot

How can this be - with not one but two 'constitutional scholars' in the guise of VEEP comik-fart-sidekick JOE'it-was-a-hair-implant-not-a-brain-transplant-rhetorical-flourishes-outta-all-my-orifices'BIDEN and of course thePREZ BARACH'incurably-dishonest-pet-monkey-on-the-leash-of-monied-organ-grinder-convicted-fraudster-George"im-having-a-very-good-crisis-betting-against-America"Soros'OBAMA??? HOW CAN THIS BE???!!! These men know the law. They make it up daily with their own FACTOIDS and EXAGGERATIONS. Neither is capable of litigating a case in even the 'lowest' of our courts. AND WITH THESE NITWITS AS WELL AS AG ERIC'ise-sold-my-soul-for-the-Marc-Rich-pardon/promotion'HOLDER OUR 'JUSDIS DEPT.' is just that - just this. 'CIVIL RIGHTS' are now what 'the OBAMA' determines they are as we march toward the new DEMBHOLE GULAGS created by our new czar COMRADE STALIN=BARACH'incurably-dishonest'OBAMA!!! Ugh. Some JUSDIS eh???!!!

John Taylor

Citizens of the world. It's too late! Bow to the Bunny!

Chuck

Perhaps - gentle readers it is time that all Americans (White, Black and any color in between) that we take a page from history. Our constitution promised the citizens equal protection under the law. Our leaders are sworn to protect our borders and our country. It seems our august leaders do not consider this as a duty, they are more involve in trying to gain more and more power so they are not our equals.

Considering that many of our ancestors gave their very lives to insure our freedom, I figure its time we do more then throw a tea party. Through this media we can bring people together and organize to remove the element that is destroying our country and our way of life. As yourself this do you want to live in a 3rd world country. The OBAMA, the PELOSI and the REID wants you to. They don’t care one damn bit for your rights, your values, your property because in the end THEY want to be the people telling you where to work, what to do and when to do it. Of course history is a wonderful teacher – it teaches us that if you tell the same lies over and over people will believe it.

TheCabinetGuy

Why does everyone act as if "school yard" rules were the order of the day? We live in a very harsh world and this is reality. We can no longer chase the unicorn and think that if we dialogue with rogues and megalomaniacs (with nukes), we will convince them to set aside their plans for world domination.

Do you really want to find out what it is like to be 2nd or perhaps 3rd in military power? I don't. Remember, it is the possibility of the use of power that maintains the peace.

The world is not peaceful in its natural state. Competition, warfare, hunger for power...these are all part of man's nature.

Obama is flexing his weakness at all of those who would take us down. I for one, prepare for the fall. You may go with a whimper, I will not, nor will millions of others to whom you will run, looking for protection.

God bless America...let's hope he fails.

YuvbinDuped

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." Thomas Jefferson


In a nutshell. The Only national security threat you should all be worried about is that from within our government. The elected officials are merely puppets. The war is on YOU! Obama is nothing more than a Federal Reserve/CFR puppet and the proof of this is his 100% turnaround from his most important campaign promises and his embracing the same monetary policies (perhaps worse) than BushCo's.

The problem bagan almost immediately when the Bankster run Judiciary decided to "interpret" the Bill of Rights for you. Sometimes too much help is no good. The only way to undermine the Bill of Rights was to "interpret" them. There were no "buts" in the Bill of Rights, your government just placed them there.


When our founders requested of the people to create our "republic" (not democracy as you have been lied into believing) they drafted up a document and informed the people that those "natural" born rights our founding fathers fought to preserve would be guaranteed protected under the republican form of government. They enumerated (listed) these rights for all to see. Any 18th century Bozo could comprehend them. They required no lawyers, scholars or interpretors to understand them as they said what they said. Free speech MEANS free speech, no "buts" about it!No "zones," no fancy smancy interpretations to skirt around them. They were laid out for any moron to understand. Your government undermined them by turning them into an unintelligible quagmire you THINK is incomprehensible.

You have been lied to for years and it is time we took back America from the Bankster who have controlled it for over a century.

It was both the Democrats and Republicans TOGETHER through the monied aristocracy (the Banksters) and the likes of individuals like David Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Paul Warburg the Rothschilds, and their ancestors, etc., who have commandeered this country and mutilated its Constitution for their own selfish and greedy gains. They create wars for profit and control over you, including the war on drugs and terror which serve only to expand government exponentially through creating "illegality" and a constant erosion of YOUR civil rights.

Its time to wake up and back the Federal Reserve Transparency Act (H.R. 1207) and let the skeletons out of the closet. The secrets MUST stop and MUST stop being used to cover up the crimes of our leaders. Our leaders MUST be held to a HIGHER standard under the rule of law, not a lesser standard.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right – a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit."

~ Abraham Lincoln, (speech in Congress January 1848)

"When all government, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the Center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."

Sanity4801

I agree....

denverrose

Sanity4801. You conveniently forget that the USA has ALWAYS supported whatever LEGAL regime is power at the time. We don't choose who that would be and if at a later time they become despots and are SANCTIONED as being in violation of UN resoultions as Iraq was at that time then WE will change our allegiance. How very convenient that you want to forgive Obama and not call a spade a spade. He is an appeaser just like Chamberlain was as history shows. So I don't know how you can just bold face outright LIE!

dfeltus

So many of these comments are cleary made by total nut cases that I really don't know what to say.

1uncle

State secrets should be limited to military secrets. Things that contries which have made us their enemy should not know which means noone should know. Things like what happened at Gitmo,especially if it saved one american life.

patriot58

well from the blogs i have seen every one is in a tizzy.
where our problem began was 1964. the democrats passed the wefare bill. that one bill has led america to the point we are at now. till then america was chugging along and using are gold reserves to pay are way. well as the years passed we added more things to the welfare bill such as unemployment, mediacaid. till 1972 came and we were out of money. are costs were more than our reserves. so what happened nixon had to take us off the gold standard and sell t bills to cover our debt. like a credit card you pay the minnimum and you keep using it. well the minimum payment keeps rising till you reach youre card limit so what do you do. you raise the amount like congress does every year it passes legislation to raise the national debt. well at some point the debt over comes what you can pay. so its either bankruptcy or forclosure. we are at that point right now not 10yrs into the future. the world is in a global recession. china our main buyer of debt has threatened to drop out and put all there money in commodities such as ore. now what happens to us if there is no one to take over. we go to full distruction as in the entire nation goes broke. well here we are all you people on the totally failed welfare state caan sit down to night and look in the mirror you caused this.

Mandeville

Every society is a function of how power is shared within it. The left is the half that can't compete as well under a libertarian rule of law, so they combine their numbers to steal from the more adept half, and in the cases of leftists who succeed without help from the State but remain left, it's because they gratify their ego by posturing as an advocate of the less abled. The egalitarian impulse is natural and healthy for the lower classes. So is envy. They are manifestations of our innate egocentrism--if we can't win, we tear down those who do.

Despite what some of the posters here think, we were not more libertarian in the past compared to today. The cultural authorities-such as religions--have all deteriorated along with the bigotries they were based on, but we were not prepared for such an extent of individualism, so we have let the state expand its power over us. All taken into consideration, we are much freer today than 50 years ago, and 50 years from now, we will be more free because political and economic competition tend to historically trend toward an equality of power, which is liberty.

PAS/AGR

It is now more important than at any other time in history to provide our government a process whereby we retain secrecy in matters of (national security).
The progress of science, technology, computers, satellites, and world wide communication systems have made spying much more common and within the capability of nations, states, and individuals.

fishtail

Oh my goodness. Everyone blogging here including me can do so because of the efforts of millions who feed us so we can sit inside all day, protect us, develop energy for us to use and on and on. America's role in the world may be less than other nations now days because other nations have copied our way of life, our political and economic philosophies and even Coke and Marlboros. American is great--and the fact that we put up with all this quibbling is further evidence of it.

EWO

You are all blind. The men who appear to control the world have created a system of division to control the masses, (divide and conquer). You are caught up in a great scheme. They use religion, money, and fear to get you eggheads to do what they want. They want you all,(even the intellegent ones) to do exactly what you are doing. Getting caught up in the veil so you cant see through it. Fighting amongst yourselves thinking you are making a difference. You cant see what is really going on. We are all being ruled over, always have been always will be. Even the rulers are being ruled over.

Think about it real hard, do you really think you know the truth. It is all about power and greed. How many countries have fellow human beings living in the streets, starving with their children. How many countries envade and kill tens of thousands just so some corporation can steal their natural resources. How many millions have been slaughtered to make a profit.

How many countries actually reach out to promote peace and well beaing for the world. Which country stood up and put an end to poverty and suffering. Not one. Why. There is no profit in peace, no profit in feeding and taking care of the poor and sick. Although there are enough resources to do it. Why dont we. Because that would affect our bank account, what we have.

One of the best tools to control humanity has been religion. Want a war, use religion to fuel it. Yet what do all religons teach.
All religions of the world command that the followers do not incite war. That they feed the poor, clothe the needy and care for the sick, and give a percentage of their earning to their church. Yet this is only practised by a very small percentage of followers. When the end comes I fear the Gods will be very dissapointed in us. Man should wonder what his God would do, what his God has commanded him to do. Not what his leaders tell him to do. Does man really worship god, or does he worship money and possesions. I think it is self evident.

If we could just see that we are all living and breathing, all have the same blood, the same desire to live. And will all die one day. And meet your maker...................................................

xi

The coinage act of 1792 defined 1 dollar as a silver coin (Art. I Section 8) containing 371.25 grains of silver. The coin circulating in the colonies at the time was the Spainish Piece of Eight. A statistical sample of these coins was ordered assayed under Hamilton and Jefferson and their average silver content determined to be 371.25 grains of Ag. 480 grains = 1 troy oz.

A quarter will still buy a gallon of gasoline, maybye two gallons.
Proof:
$0.25 x 371.25 gr. Ag/$ * 1 oz troy / 480 gr
= 0.1934 oz troy

Current "price" per troy oz Ag (www.amark.com) as of April 19, 2009 is 11.90 FRN/oz troy Ag.

0.1934 oz troy * 11.90 FRN/oz troy Ag = 2.30 FRN

Therefore, you can still buy a gallon of premium unleaded with a quarter, a real quarter that is not a slug like we all carry around in our pockets. This is how we were enslaved. We have been separated from our money and are now all debtors.

The country went bankrupt and into receivership in 1933. Collateral was required as a condition of the "Federal" Reserve "bank" to "lend" the United States the "money" to continue operating. The Social Security Act was "passed" and signed into "law" by Roosevelt in 1935. "We the People" became enumerated (serialized) persons just like toasters or any other manufactured product. We and our children were (are) the collateral. There really is an illuminati, there really are 13 families who own the central banks of the world and who print the "money" from thin air. The same thing was done in France in 1935, and after the consolidation of power(WWII) the same was done in England, Germany and behind the iron curtain. We are their property (or so they think).

Don't like it? Me neither.

The answer to 1984 is 1776.

Choose America. Freedom or death and slavery for us all. There is no other option. They intend on reducing "We the sheeple" to a "sustainable" level of 500,000,000 people. Which means they intend on killing 80%-90% of us. How? War, famnine, disease, poisoned foods and medicine. These elitist scum are merciless killers. This debt based system of enslavement has been growing and growing since the 1600's. The bubbles have all but balloned and popped. Which is why these scum hate gold and silver... they cannot print gold or silver from thin air. Our founders knew these truths as well that's why we have Art. 1 Section 10: No state shall... make anything but gold and silver coin tender in payment of debts. The Constitution also prohibits "emitting bills of credit" which is what paper money is. They simply ignore it. Arrest the banksters and this stuff will come to a screeching halt. Once we collar them and audit the Fed we can collar their handlers and owners. Turn off CNN, FOX and CBS, ABC etc... shut off the propaganda. Rise up. But first you've got to get mad. I mean really mad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqPgcfP9WN0