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May 8 2009, 11:00 am

What Pelosi Knew

Responses among the cognoscenti to the CIA's contention that it briefed Nancy Pelosi on the use of enhanced interrogation techniques are fairly typical. Those inclined to defend Democrats point to the CIA's history of misleading Congress and the incomplete record the CIA's notes sketch out; those inclined to indict Pelosi are throwing out terms like "hypocrite" and worse. The document itself is an interesting artifact of our intelligence culture and its relationship to the oversight committees. The White House might have been reluctant to share details of certain programs; it's hard to know what the CIA's motives were. By statute, they're required to provide Congress with information that holds themselves accountable, and Congress's ability to independently verify these facts is very limited. Pelosi and Porter Goss were the two ranking members of the House Intelligence Committee. That they were the only two so early briefed shows how highly classified and sensitive the program was at the time. It was probably an "Unacknowledged SAP" -- a "special access program," meaning that it was not only classified, dissemination of information about the program had to be communicated through highly classified channels.
 
2009-05-06 EIT ENCLOSURE0001.pdf

Let's peel back a layer or two about these briefings. Goss, a former CIA case officer, was in a much better position to process the information contained within the briefing than Pelosi. There is no evidence that either Goss or Pelosi objected to the "EITs" -- as the CIA still calls them. Pelosi last week said she had no idea that EITs were even being used and insisted that the subject of waterboarding never came up. That's hard to swallow, even if you believe the claim about waterboarding.  Why would the CIA even brief Pelosi about EITs if it had no intention of using them?

CIA officials and intelligence committee staff members will tell you that members rarely, if ever, object to anything in these briefings. Imagine the multiplier effect of 9/11, when most Democrats were intimidated by the muscle-flexing of the Bush Administration. Let's assume, for the sake of a hypothetical, that Pelosi had wanted to object. What she could have done -- and this does happen, occasionally -- is to walk out of the briefing, telling those CIA officials who came that what she just heard did not constitute a formal briefing, and that she would record, for her own records, that the CIA did not brief her on the subject.  The CIA briefers would then return to Langley and inform their supervisors that Pelosi walked out of the briefing, mid-stream. Since CIA felt it was required to brief her -- and since Pelosi declared herself not briefed -- the CIA would then be compelled to try to re-brief her -- and would probably send a high-ranking official who could better explain the program.

In general, the CIA briefers tend not to be the same people who execute the programs; they tend not to be the supervisors who oversee them; they tend not to be the senior officials who set policy. That's why Pelosi couldn't simply -- or wouldn't simply -- voice an objection during the original briefing. Her briefers were middlemen.

There's no evidence from the CIA records that Pelosi did anything but passively accept the briefings -- at which point the CIA could content itself with the knowledge that the ONLY outside source of accountability was sufficiently read in to the program and did not object to it.

One can't help but conclude that while Pelosi might not have known everything, she knew enough. And in today's political climate, that's kind of tough. But back in 2002, when more Americans (probably) supported those techniques than they do now (and most Americans support at least some of the EITs), and when Pelosi herself did not have the means or the legal knowledge to perform her own analysis of the legality of the techniques, and when the climate of dissent was quashed -- her reaction is understandable... maybe not, from our current perspective, excusable, although there is a range of opinion on that question.

Based on several years' worth of distance, it's easy to conclude that Congress failed to police the CIA. But Congressional oversight of these matters has never been forward-looking. Congress is ill-equipped to monitor CIA operations in real-time; it cannot look over the shoulder of every National Security Agency analyst who picks up someone on a wiretap. And -- in an environment where the threat of terrorism was real -- we might wonder whether the type of Congressional oversight we seem to want would be more harmful than productive. We want the CIA to think twice before doing something naughty, but we don't want Congress to preemptively prevent the CIA from bribing, say, a source with a prostitute. We really don't. That's why our casting about for blame ought to end with political leaders who make policy decisions -- which is, in fact, where the blame for this program does reside.

Especially now, the briefing culture provides the opportunity for intense public jostling. Remember the story, from a month ago, about how the NSA was having trouble meshing its collection technologies with laws against domestic surveillance? As soon as it "broke," members of the intelligence committees were quick to express their outrage and vowed to investigate. Well. The sources for the story had come from Congress. How did Congress know? The NSA had briefed them privately, well before the story came out. The "outrage" here -- the "surprise" -- was manufactured. I wager, however, that the reason why the story became a story in the first place was because Congressional officials -- staffers, members, I don't know who -- believed that the problem wasn't being solved. Nothing kills bacteria more quickly than the harsh disinfectant of public exposure.

My ahems and caveats don't obviate the need for some reform. Congress can change the law and custom to require CIA to brief entire committees, not just chairs; we can allow more staff in the room -- staff with experience in these matters. There are plenty of quasi-governmental intelligence oversight mechanisms, like the President's Intelligence Advisory Board. Perhaps it can be the repository of complaints and questions -- and it can adjudicate disputes. (Maybe Congress can appoint some positions to that board). 

Who knew what, when, and why are more complicated questions than they appear to be. And it would be helpful if Congress were to channel this discussion into something more productive.

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Comments (21)

If Bush forgot to tie his shoe, it was on network news for a week.
Pelosi forgets (or lies) about knowing about the "torture" techniques, and you gotta go to the blogs to read about it.
Abortion's OK, but no no no capital punishment, and for goodness sake, don't make the poor TERRORISTs uncomfortable.
How do these people's minds work?

Brian (Replying to: dj1234)

I continue to be baffled with people who say things like, "Don't make the poor terrorists uncomfortable." Just because I'm against torture, I now want to coddle terrorists? This is exactly the type of black-and-white, you're either for me or against me kind of thinking that, thankfully, is no longer in control of this country.

Cav (Replying to: Brian)

"Just because I'm against torture, I now want to coddle terrorists?"

I think you choose not to understand the hyperbole contained in that statement, Brian. On a relative basis, our new rules on prisoner interrogation have been watered down to the point that it is almost a reality that we must coddle those who routinely behead their victims on video or who electrocute genitals with regularity.

Obviously you consider waterboarding to be torture. I don't. I would be very interested to know what term you would apply to the numerous verified examples of real torture from Viet Nam, WW II, and prior wars in which western prisoners received very real torture (pulling out fingernails, starvation, cutting off of genitals, electrocution, sodomy, and so forth). If waterboarding rises to the level of "torture" in your world view, surely you must reserve another term for the many historical precedents I've mentioned.

Brian (Replying to: Cav)

Cav, if you truly believe that not waterboarding terrorists equals coddling, then there's really no point in a discussion. It's obvious from your comment that you believe we should be able to torture if our enemies torture. I simply don't agree with that.

Jaybird (Replying to: Cav)

You choose not to acknowledge the moral relativism of your position, which is essentially, "since my enemy did something horrific, that gives me the license to do something bad, because it's not as bad." Now we'll have to listen to sycophants like Ambinder give the typical false equivalency routine to Pelosi's position and those of the architects like Yoo and that smug d'bag Addington

Slaney Black (Replying to: dj1234)

If Bush forgot to tie his shoe, it was on network news for a week.
Pelosi forgets (or lies) about knowing about the "torture" techniques, and you gotta go to the blogs to read about it.

That's true. The media reported on all kinda stupid BS about Bush, while by and large letting the real evil stuff slide. They do it with Pelosi too.

@dj1234

1. There is a difference between the President and the Speaker of the House in this matter. Even setting aside the knowledge of the acts, one of these two authorized the practice and it wasn't Pelosi.

2. If you think all of this is mere discomfort, you're sense of ethics and morals are worse than relativistic, they're non-existent.

I'm not sure your mind is working at all, quite frankly.

Many top democrats knew exactly what was going on and didn't say a thing until it was politically expedient to do so. If I as a private citizen have knowledge that someone is planning a murder and then completes that murder, I can be charged as an accomplice if I didn't do anything to stop it.

If the left chooses to prosecute this, then every democrat who attended these briefings and said nothing is just as guilty as those who authorized it.

Slaney Black (Replying to: akcoyote)

If the left chooses to prosecute this, then every democrat who attended these briefings and said nothing is just as guilty as those who authorized it.

As a member of "the left", I'm perfectly fine with that. In fact, I think it's a fantastic idea. This is a matter of fundamental Americanism, not some kind of party game.

Brian (Replying to: Slaney Black)

Amen, Slaney. I've repeatedly stated that IF we're going to investigate and IF we're going to prosecute alleged crimes, then I don't care whether the person has an R or a D in front of their names. Let the chips fall where they may.

It's a simple matter of integrity. If you're calling for something like trials and plan on making political hay out it, you better be prepared for people to look into your record. It's ridiculous that people don't expect Senators and Congressmen/women to be held to any kind of a standard with regards to their voting record. Hillary Clinton votes to invade Iraq but claims she was "misled". Really? And at the same time we're supposed to treat them with awe and reverence anytime they spout something about policy? The fact remains that Pelosi was briefed. If she didn't care to object at the time or make a more formal inquiry with the CIA, that's her problem.

AlchemyToday

There are only a few possibilities here; AZ was waterboarded 83 times in 08/2002 immediately following the 08/01/2002 memo release. Pelosi claims she didn't know that these things had already happened; the CIA document says Pelosi was briefed on "the particular EITs that had been employed." The CIA wording implies that every employed technique was discussed (otherwise, the wording would be, "description of particular EITs..." not "description of *the* particular...").

So, either this document is misworded (unintentionally or otherwise), Pelosi's lying, or Pelosi forgot/wasn't paying attention. Pelosi probably wasn't briefed on every EIT since the system wasn't perfected (ugh) until later, but this document definitely says she was briefed on waterboarding.

grumpyoldman

I'm not sure what's more obscene, Pelosi's "plausible deniability" or Ambinder's willingness to adopt the term "EIT."

It's torture, Mark. Torture.

For Pelosi to deny knowledge is the height of hypocrisy and an utter lie. She was repeatedly briefed, and the waterboarding issue was well even in the general media known in 2003/2004. Several movies starring her Hollywood friends used American torture as plot vehicles. For the Speaker of the House to deny such knowledge is beyond ridicule.

Perhaps she should rewind her interview with Charlie Rose where she states she is bipartisan.

Quick Marc. Come a with a couple of paragraphs on the Pelosi CIA briefings so we can divert the attention from those that authorized, supervised and conducted the tortured to some big name non-player. Our lackies on the right will be on this like flies on poop. Guaranteed.

While in Iraq, a survey was conducted among US servicemen and women. A percentage well in excess of 90% said they would NEVER torture anyone for any reason.

A psychologist there remarked that it would be tough to explain to the spouses of these servicemen that the serviceman would not torture anyone to save his spouse's life.

Now the defining line of torture moves daily for perceived political benefit. The excesses seen in past wars indicate a firm need for control and oversight. On the other hand, none of us wants a nuclear weapon detonated in our backyards.

Interrogation methods depend on the situation to the interrogators. Train them on the law and the intent of the law, monitor them, and prosecute them, if appropriate. However, you must entrust them to do what is necessary to protect the US. We all have hired these interrogators to do this job. We must trust them, but we are obligated as their "employers" to ensure they do not get into trouble.

Jaybird (Replying to: Cogito)

While in Iraq, a survey was conducted among US servicemen and women. A percentage well in excess of 90% said they would NEVER torture anyone for any reason.

A psychologist there remarked that it would be tough to explain to the spouses of these servicemen that the serviceman would not torture anyone to save his spouse's life.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
...I'd get another opinion from a different psychologist. Perhaps the troops answered the question the way they did because they have been trained properly that a)torture does not obtain reliable info b)it is not appropriate for their commanders to ask/expect them to do something illegal c)they take an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States.

Cav (Replying to: Jaybird)

As a former combat officer, I fail to see the disconnect asserted about these survey results. My wartime experience assures me that no rational US service member would never condone, much less impose, real torture upon a captured POW. However, it would be a pretty hard sell to convince me that the same aversive training techniques (waterboarding among them) used in many training scenarios on US troops to mentally and physically prepare for deployment should be off-limits when the chips are down on high value prisoners who retain critical knowledge of future genocidal operations, key players, communication links, and so forth.

This is not a morally relative position. It is a simple rejection of waterboarding as real torture.

Whether Pelosi knew is an entirely phony controversy. The evidence she did is at best mixed and when the source making all the noise is Hoekstra you could be forgiven for a little scepticism. At the end of the day lets assume she was told, what difference did it make. She was being informed not consulted or asked her opinion. And when she had been given the info exactly what could she do with it because it was classified. This is just another one of those classic attention diverters that one has come to know so well from Republicans. It doesn't alter by one iota the responsibility of those that ordered torture knowing that it breached US and international law, and the Geneva and UN conventions on torture. Nor does it absolve those who provided legal cover. This is a controversy that is not even on the national radar and is likely to have very little impact on the legal dispositions that Holder may make. It's really just fodder so bloggers and radio or cable show folk can trade accusations. I'm going to be much more interested in the report on the OLC and the paper trails therein.

It's clear the Congressional briefing process needs to be clarified. What's the point if there is no "disinterested" review of the briefing revelations that determine whether the action/proposed action of the intelligence authority is lawful or not? And if Pelosi was briefed, she should own it and explain what her rationale was at the time. With the Harmon episode re AIPAC and now this, things aren't looking too good for the home team. Maybe the rest of the Dems could learn a lesson from Obama about candor?

ewheelerbell

This is very interesting discussion for a number of reasons.

First I think that it's important for us, citizens, to understand and support the pursuit and maintenance of a moral position of authority world wide. With this being said, we've come to an understanding internationally of what torture is and what torture isn't. This understanding is outlined in the Geneva conventions. Changing the identifiers of behavior, doesn't change the nature of that behavior.

Secondly, without compromising national security, there have to be mechanisms in place that hold people accountable for the decisions that they make and the actions that are subsequently taken. In this particular case, I've got no real objection with those individuals who followed orders and proceeded with the water boarding techniques. Within a system/organization, there are often those who are in a position to simply follow orders and not ask any questions.

However, there is an issue with the "suits" who are crafting and implementing the policies as well as those who expressly or tacitly supporting them (i.e. Nancy Pelosi). These briefings that take place and the content presented and discussed in these briefs must be documented, even if they are categorized as highly classified. From that point, decisions can be made about the accountability, public scrutiny and scorn, and disciplinary action individuals or departments are subjected to by the Department of Justice.

As I believe this issue is in the realm of International Affairs, I completely understand the role that partisan politics play, but there must be some high-mindedness in crafting a system of accountability to ensure that America gains and maintains a high-level of morality and practical accountability when dealing with prisoners of war.

I would even be more impressed with the mirage that there was some accountability, but even in this current political quagmire there seems to be little chance of that.