House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) have an op-ed in today's USA Today, wherein they suggest the disruption of town-hall meetings on health care reform is "un-American":
These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views -- but of the facts themselves. Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades.This, of course, does not sit well with conservatives; in the blogosphere, both Hot Air and Michelle Malkin (who founded Hot Air, and who is an official promoter of the tea parties planned for August 22) cite Democratic complaints that the Bush administration called its opponents unpatriotic to marginalize them and push the country into war.
Pelosi and Hoyer don't say opposing health care reform is un-American; they say drowning out debate is. Health reform should be "subject to so much scrutiny and debate...it is well worth the time it takes to get it right. We are confident that we will get this right," they write.
Disruption is indisputably one element of the campaign to oppose health care reform. Is it un-American? What is American? Surely these people were all born in America. All of
this is happening in America. Maybe drowning out debate is American,
after all...I guess we'll find out.
It's clear that the people who drown out town-hall meetings don't want to hear what Democrats have to say about health care. Lots of them express fundamental misunderstandings about what Democrats are proposing--like the father of a man with cerebral paulsy who shouted at Rep. John Dingell that President Obama's reforms would leave his son with absolutely zero medical care--and they don't want to hear what the plan actually is, because they think they know it already...or they think there's a behind-the-scenes plan to erect a single-payer system, either now or a few years down the road, and they don't trust any part or party of the process, but rather their own convictions about Obama's sinister motives.
The hard part, for Democrats, is explaining their plan with all this going on, and with the "plan" splayed out in several different places and forms--Obama's desire for a public option, the co-op plan bubbling up in the Senate, and the House bill--and on that front, Pelosi and Hoyer vow to crack on:
This month, despite the disruptions, members of Congress will listen to their constituents back home and explain reform legislation. We are confident that our principles of affordable, quality health care will stand up to any and all critics.
I wonder what would happen if Democratic representatives decided to ditch the flesh and blood town hall format and just do it by video broadcast, either in a public forum or just online? The problem with that is that just holding it online and not publicly would shut out people with little to no access at home. That said, how much would anyone want to bet that the GOP would be calling for DDOS attacks on the websites?
Yes, it is indeed un-American to disrupt the meetings. Not to protest, and not to discuss or examine the plans in detail, but to both shut off debate and discussion altogether AND threaten those who plan to come in counter-protest with violence.
Screaming down speakers is unAmerican--I disagree with what you say but will defend your right to say it, Thomas Paine, etc. It's true of a Town Hall or a speaker on a college campus, to use the favorite "it's okay for me to pitch a hissy fit and shut down the Town Hall because I've heard some college students are rude" comeback. And to the vast middle it makes you look stupid and afraid, as though you fear any rational speaker will convince people you are wrong--I thought the same thing 20 years ago when a small silly group shouted down a speaker from the Contras at my college.
To accuse people of behaving in a way that is unAmerican--not supporting the principles of the country--is not the same as saying dissent = unpatriotic = traitor. There will always be dissent. All the dissenters may well be patriots. There is a lot of space between "I disagree with you, and here's why" and "DEATH PANELS DEATH PANELS DEATH PANELS NO YOU CAN'T RESPOND" and to conflate the two is pretty silly.
Exactly right. There is a difference between name calling and calling out an action. I realize the press and right wing media have trouble with subtlety and nuance. I think it is un-American behavior to shout down a speaker so that other people who came to an event to engage in dialogue are not allowed to participate. It is kind of like preventing someone with a different point of view from voting. That kind of behavior is unacceptable. The women from Code Pink always get dragged out of the room for doing that. Why these people don't astounds me.
Sorry Lolis -- you seem to have a very selective memory. Since the Reagan administration, left wing nutbags have continually shouted down speakers on college campuses, at speaking halls and at legislative town halls. So take a reality pill and get over it. Remember how BHO said to take a gun to a knife fight a couple of weeks ago? I'm sure you think that was a great example of presidential leadership! Then expect what you get!
What concerns many of you libs is that you're on the wrong side of the issue and can't get yourselves to accept the fact publically.
Jus go ahead and support BHO having unfettered access to your bank account -- go ahead. Don't ask me to do it!
Pelosi and her Democratic cohorts are the UNAMERICANS!! The fact is that there are millions of us who are wondering if they are not communists! The socialistic agenda they are pursuing is definitely- UN
American. People are yelling and screaming because Pelosi and friends are NOT LISTENING!! RENO( Re-elect No One) voting is gathering steam and we the people(I guess we are un american to them) are going to vote them out starting this next election!!! So enjoy those new Jets while you can congress, as it will be the last plane ride at the taxpayers expense you take!! I wonder how many people could have been helped with that money? But needless to say, you don't care about anything but your own self- seeking, self-gratifying agenda. Pelosi helped bankrupt California and she has got a great start on taking the U.S. down too.
Why in the world can't the voters in California see that she does them more harm than helping them? She is not respected in our part of the country!
Communists? Socialistic agenda? New Jets? Pelosi helped bankrupt California?.... If you could post a thread that made a case for any of this, in any logically related fashion, it would go far toward making the case that justifies disruption of attempts to discuss the issue.
For example: The financial difficulties of the state of California are probably more related to the passage of the act which allows ballot initiatives which have prevented the legislature from enacting needed and appropriate revenue measures. These were championed and brought about by Republicans and conservatives, and so are probably NOT a result of the work of Nancy Pelosi. Now you....
People are listening. You guys just lost in November. This all sore loser behavior. Pelosi has nothing to do with the California budget. It is hard to know if you are lying or just really ignorant.
Hello, and just a friendly reminder, regurgitating rhetoric from the Red Scare (1950's) era identifies you as a moron. Buzzwords such as "communism" and "socialism" will immediately cause the reader's eyes to drop to the next comment, thereby reflexively bypassing what is clearly a pronounced case of stupidity. Multiple exclamation marks and capitalization of words that do not deserve that designation (few do) is also a sure sign that the individual is an angry, crazy, barely literate, teabagging birther, who is not to be taken seriously. If you're going to make an argument, try and do so without looking like you're losing your sh*t.
And no, we're not listening. As in I can't hear you...You dig?
They sure are un-American Conservative efforts to pre-dispose the American public, fire them up against the Democrat government and health care reform agenda and send them out "into the streets" NOT to ask genuine questions at the town hall meetings, or god forbid they should actually read the proposed Bill, NO the call-to-action is to FIGHT "Government thugs" and "socialized medecine"!!
How can Republican Rep, McConnel look America in the eye and pretend otherwise...the proof is all over the web. Here's just a small example :
"...a large scale, widely promoted and unified stance against this dangerous healthcare legislation (describing the Recess Rally). Michelle Malkin has joined the coalition along with Smart Girl Politics, American Liberty Alliance, American Majority, the Sam Adams Alliance, Americans for Limited Government, Freedom Works, and RedState.com...Now is the time for all good tea party activists to get out on the streets and tell Washington to keep its grubby hands off health care...These Government thugs think they can slip socialism into America. We think it’s time to prove them wrong." www.americanlibertyalliance.com
"CALLING ALL AMERICANS: JOIN THE AUGUST RECESS RALLY. PROTEST!
It’s time to grab a sign and raise your voice against this monstrosity that Barack Obama and his liberal allies want to shove down America’s collective throat....Tell Congress to keep its dirty paws off our healthcare system, and tell President Obama that you don’t want a future with socialized healthcare."
www.amerpundit.com
Never seen either of those websites, so I'll have to take your word that what they actually say.
As I stated on another post, I actually took the time to read and print all 1017 pages of the House bill, from the government printing office website. I took that to a town meeting with my congressional representative, and he denied what I read straight out of the bill.
I am neither a Democrat or Republican. I cannot abide by either party. I always vote independently and chose the candidate that I determine is closest to my beliefs. I didn't vote for Bush or McCain, and I didn't vote for Obama. None of them stand for what I believe.
I am also a retired military officer who spent many, many, years defending the constitution (a copy of which I keep in my house) and cannot believe how "government" has been trampling it over the past 15 or so years.
Although this Pelosi idiot has been an enjoyable clown to laugh at, she is now becoming dangerous; time to cut her loose and vote her out.
Since when did loud opposition to anything become UN-AMERICAN? What about the Boston Tea Party - WERE THEY OUT FOR A QUIET EVENING WALK? NO NO NO -- WE all have to oppose the current people that are supposed to represent us ????? from FORCING a NATIONALIZED HEALTH CARE SYSTEM down our throates. COME ON - we all know that the FREE ENTERPRISE system in this Republic allows INDIVIDUALS to organize our Health Care System and allows others to participate. Whe doesn't our government just pay a little more for thaose who need Medicare and Medicaid to the people who schooled themselves in the Medical field. That would bring more people into the medical profesion. PS: I heard that New Jersey has a Charity Care program for the uninsured that cant really afford medical care and New Jersey isn't going bankrupt. How does their plan work?
Are you really comparing the democratically elected President of the United States to King George?
Otherwise, your analogy falls a bit flat.
I don't know if Viet Vet 65 intended to compare Obama to King George, but I certainly will.
Tyrrany is tryanny however derived.
Democracy doesn't trump freedom, it is, at best, a tool to be used in the pursuit of freedom. At worst, it is a mortal enemy to be defeated by any means necessary. Have you forgotten the "tyrrany of the majority" referred to by Mill, Aristotle, Madison, de Toqueville, etc?
Yes, we lived under tyranny under George W. Bush. Thankfully we voted his gang of thieves out of power. Now the minions of the old corrupt order want the reigns of power back so they can launch more useless wars and pay off their corporate cronies.
I think the comparison is closer to Karl Marx than King George. George was all about the monarchy where as Karl wanted a utopian socialism more like Obama.
Responses like the two above just make me shake my head.
It makes me wonder what your definition of tyranny and socialism are because neither of them apply to the current healthcare reform debate.
If we were arguing about single payer then the term socialism might apply (y'know, like Medicare) but otherwise it is just hyperbole.
Actually, Marx socialism was to take the efforts of all for the good of all. So if we tax the rich (above $250,000 as Obama claims or all the middle class as several economists say it will take) to "subsidize" insurance premiums for the poor, tell me how that is not socialism?
So by your definition, Reagan was a socialist?
Hmmm, VietVet 65? Get your medical care from the Veterans Administration do ya? A point if you will... loud opposition is ENTIRELY different than 'disruption'. One engages in loud opposition as a part of the discussion to make one's viepoint known. Disruption is undertaken when one is excluded from the conversation. Preventing ANY discussion from taking place is expressly anti democratic. The Boston Tea Party participants did not take action when the discussion regarding whether to tax tea was underway. Their action came when they were not allowed to participate in the discussion at all.
The discussion has not hinged on the lack of people entering the medical profession. The discussion is largely about covering the presently uninsured and paying for that coverage. Without an actual plan (we are still TRYING to discuss it) You are opposed to what specifically?
Please see your VA specialist. You know, the government run, taxpayer financed, single payer healthcare system for vets such as yourself. I think you have some psychiatric malady that has remained undiagnosed, all this time. I'm going out on a limb, but my tentative diagnosis is "batsh*t crazy". Perhaps an overdose of LSD, while you were "in country"? Perhaps an allergic reaction to all the lies being spewed on Fox News. Get help, quick.
The comments by ezbdave and Truthfairy are pretty indicative of this phenomenon.
You complain that Pelosi et al. won't listen to you. However, there are townhalls all across the country. Is there a policy debate going on? No.
All there is are conservatives yelling "Socialism", "Communism", "Fascism" etc, to the extent that I don't think that they have any desire to debate the issues.
If you want to argue about Medicare reimbursement rates or how widespread the healthcare exchange will be, that is fine, even admirable.
But just showing up at a townhall and shouting so that there is no debate based on the facts, it is un-American. It is also ultimately self-defeating & pretty foolish as well.
I showed up at a meeting, with a copy of the bill. Rep. Larsen denied that it said what I was reading from the actual bill approved by the House. He didn't want to discuss it, he wanted to spin it.
The only favorable speakers besides him, were all Canadians that should have no place in the discussion at all.
A bill has been "introduced" in the House. Nothing has been "approved" yet.
Perhaps what you read to him doesn't actually mean what you think it means. After all, lots of people think that a certain page mandates assisted suicide when it says nothing of the sort. I keep hearing people claiming to have read the bill and then claiming that there are things in the bill that simply are not in the bill.
Specifically what Division, Section, Title, Subtitle, etc. were you reading to Rep. Larsen and what is it that you think it means?
First, ALL of politics has long since degenerated into stagecraft - framing your issues as "essential", "long overdue", or, better, an "emergency" while excluding, silencing, or marginalizing opposing views - hence the marginalizing "undemocratic" charge of this issue.
None practice these undemocratic methods with more religious ferocity than whining Democrats and their flacks in the media. Where was democracy while these very bills were being pushed through in the middle of the night - unread even by those who voted on them?
Second, the people "disrupting" this ostensible democratic process are fully aware that politicians routinely pack "town hall" meetings with their supporters, e.g. the SEIU members who beat one protestor nearly to death, while excluding as much of the opposition as humanly possible. Where is the democracy in these practices?
These protestors are simply infuriated with being routinely excluded from the "democratic process", of being lied to with impunity and regularity by representatives of a government that fails at virtually everything it undertakes, and, then, has the temerity to contend that it should be in charge of everyone's health care.
Government hasn't deserved trust in any form for an extremely long time and deserves it less on this issue than any other. Government is no longer the problem Reagan described. It is now the enemy and these people realize the fact.
Amen, and Pelosi is chief among our enemies in government.
"beat one protestor nearly to death"
I assume your talking about Gladney. If so, your characterization is a gross exaggeration. A more reasoned look here
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_08/019423.php
But granted that you describe your representative government as "the enemy", I doubt that you really care about engaging in a fact based debate.
Nobody threatens American liberty more than reactionary tea party thugs. It's all liberty to them and to nobody else.
The protesters are angry because their great Republican heroes sold them out for power and then got voted out by the American people.
Lied to? Or being told what you want to hear? It's easy to confuse the two. And fails at everything? Surely you jest? Have you actually ever worked for any kind of company, in any kind of capacity? They're all the same, and unless you work alone, scrawling screeds in a remote shack, freed from the "shackles of tyranny", then surely you must realize that you are painting government with a fairly broad brush.
Politics has always been like this. Politics is the art of betrayal. Unless, of course, you've forgotten your history. There's never been a system of politics free from corruption, murder, lies, and all manner of skullduggery. It's life. Get used to it. And stop whining. It's boring.
While I might comment that PorkBelly's Washington Monthly reference comes from what is self described as “the progressive must read magazine”, pursuit along such purely partisan lines is both pointless and endless.
Instead, I'd like to thank Bill Davis for helping me make my point. I recognize, of course, that there are companies as incompetent as government; however, there are two fundamental differences between failure by private companies and failure by government.
First, private companies that fail go out of business sooner or later(unless bailed out by government special interests), whereas there is zero incentive to end failed government programs. Consequently, they just go on and on and on, sucking up the nation's resources, spinning off unintended consequences that also prove to be failures, and ultimately developing rentseeking special interest support. Indeed, this applies to Republican programs as well as those of our social democrats. The ONLY exception I have found is the original GI Bill and even it eventually outlived its usefulness.
Second, private companies don't put a gun to your head to force you to pay for their failures, something that government routinely does. As Trotsky noted, you may not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you. The current attempt by our socialists to take over healthcare is as good a case in point as any. I don't see any of these socialists advocating letting anyone out of their utopian plans, whereas those of us who value freedom are more than willing to let our socialist fellow citizens free to form their own socialist state.
Socialism, socialism, booga, booga.
Here is another link to the Gladney case. Let me know where it says he was "beaten nearly to death".
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/0470FEB3219207458625760B001142AC?OpenDocument
The reason why there's "zero incentive" to end government programs is because a vast majority of people, or at least special interests, often backed by the recipients of the government's largesse (like corporations), don't want those programs to end. Since neither government or corporations can remedy many, if not most problems, it's disingenuous to label one entity "bad" and the other "good". Whereas corporations sole interest is to profit, government at least has to consider a broad range of interests before settling on a program that, in its watered down form, does a little for everyone and not very much for those it purports to be helping. I'm not so foolish to think, after having worked on both sides of the fence, that one is really better than the other, or that comparing them, side by side, will prove, once and for all, the virtues of the other.
What's exasperating is that most people have no idea what freedom, socialism, government, or healthcare actually means for them. They throw these terms around, like the word "God", with the mistaken assumption that it means the same thing for everyone else. (Wrong.) Really, your puny attempts to use a loaded word like "socialism" isn't intended to open up debate, but to create a means to push people away from any attempts at all to address the issue. Socialism, as used by healthcare opponents, is the whatever/f*ck you of politics, and the fact that it regularly comes out, on schedule, every thirty years or so, leads me to believe that "socialism" isn't about healthcare, or any other issue, but people's fear of other people, and the fear of the change that is occurring outside of anyone's ability to control.
If you were serious about the healthcare debate, you would actually find some common ground to attempt to remedy this issue. Regardless of where you stand, you should be able to objectively read the facts and conclude, like so many other failing systems that sustain our way of live, that this current healthcare project is unsustainable. To oppose any attempts to reform it, as many on the right have desperately concluded, is to inevitably push the system in exactly the direction they want to avoid (single payer government run healthcare). Your leaders seem unwilling to at least participate in this process, choosing instead to forgo any compromise and turn to the favorite tactic of the disenfranchised, which is to choose to not participate at all, and throw bombs from the sidelines.
Nice try on the "gun" thing, but I can't remember the last time anyone held a gun to my head. (Never.) I pay for a lot of failures in this world, but I'm not forced to do so at gunpoint. I get the impression, however, that many conservatives would like to use their hoarded weapons and ammo to force the point on healthcare and many other issues, like violence will actually "solve" or temporarily prevent the inevitable (reform of our current healthcare system) from happening. The sad fact is that many of the conservative commentators are cheering on the more violent fringes of the birther movement. What next, assassination? (Real) bomb throwing? This is a civil issue, not a military one. Let's keep it that way.
Yesterday I cut up my big toe quite badly, and arrived at hospital at just past 9:30 pm. Left the hospital at 10:40 pm. Excellent service, only waited about 45 min and treatment took about 20 min.
My point? I'm Canadian. Not only was I in and out in just over an hour, but it cost me zero dollars. Sure, my taxes are a bit higher, but I would prefer to pay taxes and have a working system that benefits all citizens rather than a system based on the profitability of insurance companies.
Would you prefer that the government, whose stated purpose is to govern the nation and care for its citizens, be in control of your health care, or corporations, whose stated purpose is to make money?
That is a debate I would like to hear. Shame it's being shouted down.
You have great medical, so what? Why are you involved in any discussion of medical care for The UNITED STATES? You're either a plant, or a troll. I don't get involved in anything north of the border. Go away or get naturalized!
So what you're saying is that the track records of existing systems with taxpayers supporting the medical care of the average citizen are irrelevant to this debate.
I presume then, using your logic, that you are a plant from the insurance companies and are adding to the noise surrounding a reasoned debate of the overhaul to your system, or you are simply ignorant and wish to remain stagnant in your own beliefs.
I will not leave this debate, however, as I have American relatives who will be using your idiotic system and I would prefer to have them taken care of by someone other than the CEO of AIG. You don't like my input? Tough.
Pelosi and Hoyer did not come to the meeting to discuss H.C. Not really.
What they came to do is arrogantly explain to us they are promoting special interests to attempt to "steam roll" over the will of the American citizen, and pass legislation which will destroy another vital American industry! To they REALLY EXPECT us to stand in a straight line and be executed by their advocacy og government destruction of our H.C.?
Absurd!
Some thoughts of Thomas Jefferson on the government...
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always
kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a
little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail
Adams, 1787.
"The commotions that have taken place in America, as far as they are yet known to me, offer nothing
threatening. They are a proof that the people have liberty enough, and I could not wish them less than
they have. If the happiness of the mass of the people can be secured at the expense of a little tempest
now and then, or even of a little blood, it will be a precious purchase. 'Malo libertatem periculosam
quam quietem servitutem.' Let common sense and common honesty have fair play, and they will soon
set things to rights." --Thomas Jefferson to Ezra Stiles, 1786. ME 6:25
Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner, and his "spirit of resistance" was predicated on maintaining a way of life that was not only despicable, but also economically unsustainable. He was threatening a revolt--violence--to get his way. Your words, and their unintended meaning, couldn't have been more apropos.
I am not a Canadian (not yet, at least), but I can get fine medical coverage in the US. The only problem is that even though my family is in the top 5% in US household income, the cost of insurance, for premiums, co-pays, and employer premiums, is more than 15% of our income. In Canada, or under the Democratic sponsored plans, the premium/tax-based premium would be cut in half, and we would still get excellent service.
So what is not to like about it? The fact that Teabaggers, John Birchers, Young Republican sociopaths, and corporatist crooks hate it is just gravy.
To Xenos and others(interesting to note that Xenos by definition was a strange gas and also resulting in a monophonic chant/liturgy of the now extant Byzantine church!!!): Unfortunately you do not state that any changes in no matter how minor rate or consequence of this House-of-Fools SCHEME results in automatic placement on the GOVERNMENT ADMISTERED SCAM!!! DO THEY TEACH CANADIANS HOW TO READ/REASON/INTERPRET ENGLISH??? Or must you and other Canadians remove your SOCIALIST/MARXIST glasses to interpret ordinary language??? Oh well all hail our new COMMISIR STALIN='the OBAMA'!!! Restore the HEALTH&WEALTH of AMERIKA - remove the BLACK PUNK CHICAGO COMMIE FLY-SWATTER-n-CHIEF + MINDLESS MARXIST'S now!!!
You write an incoherent response like this and then you wonder why people do not take you seriously. And if you could not understand my point, I will rephrase it for your benefit. I would gladly accept a monopolistic public option because I expect I would get at least as good service at a significant discount to what I am paying now. A monopolistic public option is not in the offing, the best we can do in the near future is a half-baked set of industry-friendly reforms. Still, if that drives the bircher assholes (more) crazy, I will accept that for now just for the entertainment value.
Still, it would be better to have a universal insurance system - it would be best for the country as a whole, and being patriotic and non-sociopathic, I support policy goals like that.
The government-run plan, aka "public option, is definitely in the cards. A "competitor" with unlimited capital who doesn't pay taxes and who writes the rules of competition always wins.
Besides President Obama has repeatedly said he wants a single-payer system. Actually that's what you just said you want. Why shouldn't we believe him or you?
The right wing extremist comments on this board are exactly why America will get major health care reform. The opposition has ceded the table to conspiracy theorists. Without serious opposition all the Dems have to do is shove the screamers aside and pass the legislation. Since the screamers are little more than an angry minority - note that whatever concerns the public has with the health care reform efforts, only a tiny, tiny minority believe what the nutjobs are saying - the Democrats will get their way.
As a Democrat, I wholeheartedly INVITED the tea party wankers to do their strut every time Obama launches a major initiative. It makes passage much easier when the opposition is so loopy. You people are as useful to us as the hippies were to Reagan and Nixon.
You are more optimistic than me. For example, have you seen the headline "Palin lies about healthcare reform" or "Boehner distorts healthcare reform proposal" on this blog or any major media source?
Nope.
You forget that the press has largely repeated these bizarre fabrications uncritically. Until the MSM starts calling out politicians on their lies, a significant portion of the population is always going to be seriously misinformed.
It wasn't the "right wing extremists" that threw the Democrats out last time. It was the middle of the road moderates and independents. Lest you get too happy, remember 2010 is a congressional election year, and health care reform isn't scheduled to be fully implemented until 2013.
stubborn |ˈstəbərn|
adjective
having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, esp. in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so : he accused her of being a silly, stubborn old woman.
• difficult to move, remove, or cure : the removal of stubborn screws.
I know exactly what my name indicates. I show dogged determination not to change my position on political alignment... I am stubborn independent!
I agree with one of the entries, Elrod, several quotes above mine. These screamers only make their cause look like it is the stockyard for raging bulls and the shit pit for inbred monsters. People usually don't hear what was screamed, they just know that it was said very loudly and the message was lost under all of the noise and vituperation. These screamers are making a good case to vote against anything they believe in since they are such mouse minded idiots. Of course, their mouth is ten times the size of their mouse size mind. The gas bags will lose in the end, since no rational, thinking person will believe them. My fear is that they will get violent with guns, since they are rabid (meaning rabies, the disease that dogs, critters and varmints get) believers in the nra. I no longer capitalize those letters nra for that organization. They seem to think it is ok to kill Dr. Tiller in Kansas since they did not agree with him, and people like rabid randall terry justify the violence and killing. so did that dubious so called newscaster on cnn, the so-called christian news network. I really fear for the safety of senators and other elected officials who decide to appear at these meetings in an effort to help the public get a clear understanding of the issues involved in the health care debate.
Insulting those who disagree with you is perfectly understandable given the example of democratic leadership. However, I am both pro choice and pro gun. I do not belong to the NRA any longer, because I got tired of their constant need for more money from me that my dues. I also know about 50 or so Democrat members of the NRA so guess your blanket doesn't fit as nicely as you'd like. Extreme politics from both sides is unacceptable as is replies such as yours.
You know 50 or so Democrat members of the nra? I imagine there might be some Democrats who are members. Probably more. I don't know what blanket you'd be talking about. Is it nitey nite time when you talk about blankets? Maybe you should get some sleep. You probably think I am insulting those I disagree with since your are one of them. If you are going to talk about my response being "extreme" politics, why don't you address that to yourself? The corrected sentence would be "Extreme politics from both sides is unacceptable as ARE replies such as yours", and that corrected sentence applies to you too. It is too bad you chose not to respond to my concerns about congressional members speaking at the public meetings. The noisy, violent interrupters are right wingers, and they have openly condoned violence as a method of getting their way, when it actually causes the public to be galvanized against them. I guess you're just another one of them who sees no problem with using violence, or you would have addressed it.
http://truthiest.blogspot.com/2009/08/more-reichwing-corporate-astroturfing.html
More Reichwing Corporate Astroturfing by Big Pharma Goons
Faked Grassroots:
The Ultra-right, so far right that they are 4th Reich, has launched another breakout Battle of the Bulge.
Sending in more busloads of stormtroopers who don't have jobs, or home lives, or family obligations, across state lines to 35 cities is a front group called "Our Country Deserves Better PAC".
According to false-messiah Sun Myung Moon's Washington Times newspaper:
The group's Tea Party Express kicks off a bus caravan on Aug. 28 and will host 35 rallies in cities and towns from coast to coast that will end with a taxpayer rally in Washington on Sept. 12
... Mr. Wierzbicki, whose organization was formed during the 2008 elections and now boasts 350,000 supporters.
The cross-country bus tour is being supported by many groups that have been active in the tea party protest movement, including FreedomWorks, the conservative advocacy group headed by former House Majority Leader Dick Armey of Texas, the National Tax Limitation Committee, and Tea Party Patriots.
Other organizations were conducting their own lobbying campaigns against the administration's health care plan, including the Washington-based Americans for Prosperity, which has launched a Patients First bus trip that has been touring through Virginia, North Carolina, Nebraska, and other states. The buses are emblazoned with the campaign's banner logo
The Tea Party Express caravan, which will include two 45-foot buses, several RVs and SUVs, and a moving van for additional equipment, will begin at a rally in Sacramento and head out across the country on 22-day tour of cities from Reno, Nev., to Bridgeport, Conn., before its Washington finale. Advance teams are promoting the rallies in each city, most of which are the hometowns of Democratic lawmakers who are considered vulnerable in the 2010 midterm elections.
Bridgeport Connecticut is the home of Sun Myung Moon's university and theology school. Moon can always be counted on to bring out a crowd of cult-devotees on demand.
Correcting some falsehoods of the Moonie Times:
1. The 350,000 members are mailing lists merged from several longstanding Reichwing organizations and have not signed up specifically and exclusively for this particular campaign.
2. "Our Country Deserves Better PAC" is a republican-organized campaign limited to conservative republicans only plus any others who can be duped into falling for their spam.
3. FreedomWorks, Tea Party Patriots, Americans for Prosperity, Patients First, are all one single organization with multiple names and with overlapping executives and decision-makers. For example: bosses Dick Armey and Killer Koch Brother David Koch are tied to all of them.
4. While "they" claim 350,000 members, many who don't know that they have joined or are counted because of the multiple fake organization names, Obama was elected by over 9,000,000 more votes than the loser, and the voters gave him a mandate to change healthcare for the better.
I am totally against shouting down any speaker. However watching conservative politicians and speakers being shouted down for years, I find amusing that the liberal commenters above are suddenly worried about politicians and speakers being shouted down.
I went to our Democratic congressman's "coffee" Saturday morning in Lee's Summit, Mo. Everyone on both sides was civil. Seems that the often feigned concern about conservative protesters is just an attempt to discredit any legitimate opposition to ObamaCare.
Instead of automatically dismissing any conservative criticism of ObamaCare as stupid, perhaps liberals should apply some of their vaunted "critical thinking skills" to ObamaCare.
For example, they resolutely insist that the government-run plan or the phony "coop" plan will eventually drive private health insurers out of business. Yet a "competitor" with unlimited capital who doesn't pay taxes and who writes the rules of competition always wins. Besides President Obama has repeatedly said that's what he wants. Why shouldn't we believe him?
Many, if not most of the people I saw on CNN shouting down Senator Arlen Specter earlier today were white haired and a few years my senior. I direct my comments to them.
In a few short years I will be switching my health care to a single payer, government run, socialized health care plan that has no exclusions of coverage, reasonable deductibles, no upper dollar limit of converge, no rescissions of coverage, free choice of doctors, including specialists and all at the lowest overhead rate in the industry, perhaps 3-4%. What is this marvelous plan? Why, of course it is your Medicare.
The very same Medicare that conservatives back then labeled as socialist, communist and worse back when you were still working. Perhaps you part of the tea parties of the 60s protesting this step toward communist domination. Don’t you feel silly now? I have never met a conservative republican in my live who turned down their Medicare coverage. None of them, near as I can tell, have turned into communists or stark raving socialists.
Across this country you are shouting down our representatives who are giving me, and tens of millions of others like me, the option of choosing the same plan you have. I, of course, will have to pay for it out of my own pocket, at least until I am 65. After 65, like you, I get to have everyone else pay for it. This, of course, needs fixing as well; well off seniors should pay for their health insurance premiums as well but that is a debate (or a shout down, in your case), for another day.
If I were at your rally this morning I might be forced to shout as well, to answer you. But my shouting would be in favor of a government run, single payer, socialized medical option to provide health care for everyone at a reasonable price. What are you shouters really afraid of? That I, and others like me, might get the same affordable health care you have?