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Nov 21 2009, 11:29 am

A Milestone in the Health Care Journey

When I reached Jonathan Gruber on Thursday, he was working his way, page by laborious page, through the mammoth health care bill Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid had unveiled just a few hours earlier. Gruber is a leading health economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who is consulted by politicians in both parties. He was one of almost two dozen top economists who sent President Obama a letter earlier this month insisting that reform won't succeed unless it "bends the curve" in the long-term growth of health care costs. And, on that front, Gruber likes what he sees in the Reid proposal. Actually he likes it a lot.

"I'm sort of a known skeptic on this stuff," Gruber told me. "My summary is it's really hard to figure out how to bend the cost curve, but I can't think of a thing to try that they didn't try. They really make the best effort anyone has ever made. Everything is in here....I can't think of anything I'd do that they are not doing in the bill. You couldn't have done better than they are doing."

Gruber may be especially effusive. But the Senate blueprint, which faces its first votes tonight, also is winning praise from other leading health reformers like Mark McClellan, the former director of the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services under George W. Bush and Len Nichols, health policy director at the centrist New America Foundation. "The bottom line," Nichols says, "is the legislation is sending a signal that business as usual [in the medical system] is going to end."

Both the Senate bill's priority on controlling long-term health care costs, and its strategy for doing so, represents a validation for Senate Finance Committee chairman Max Baucus (D-MT). When Baucus released his health reform proposal last September, after finally terminating months of fruitless negotiations with committee Republicans, Democratic liberals excoriated his plan as a dead end. And on several important fronts--such as subsidies for the uninsured, the role of a public competitor to private insurance companies, and the contribution required from employers who don't insure their workers--Reid moved his product away from Baucus toward approaches preferred by liberals.

But the Reid bill's fiscal strategy, and its vision of how to "bend the curve," almost completely follows Baucus' path from September. Baucus' bill was the first to establish the principle that Congress could expand coverage while reducing the federal deficit; now that's the standard not only for the Senate but also the House reform legislation. And, perhaps even more importantly, the Reid bill maintains virtually all of Baucus ideas' for shifting the medical payment system away from today's fee-for-service model toward an approach that more closely links compensation for providers to results for patients. In the Reid bill, there is some backtracking from Baucus' most aggressive reform proposals, but not much.

Almost everything Baucus proposed to control long-term costs have survived into the final bill. And, with only a few exceptions, that's just about all the systemic reforms analysts from the center to the left have identified as the most promising strategies for changing the economic incentives in the medical system. (The public competitor to private insurance companies championed by the Left would affect who writes the checks in the medical system, but not what the checks are written to pay for.) Most of the other big ideas for controlling costs (such as medical malpractice reform) tend to draw support primarily among Republicans. And since virtually, if not literally, none of them plan to support the final health care bill under any circumstances, the package isn't likely to reflect much of their thinking.

In their November 17 letter to Obama, the group of economists led by Dr. Alan Garber of Stanford University, identified four pillars of fiscally-responsible health care reform. They maintained that the bill needed to include a tax on high-end "Cadillac" insurance plans; to pursue "aggressive" tests of payment reforms that will "provide incentives for physicians and hospitals to focus on quality" and provide "care that is better coordinated"; and establish an independent Medicare commission that can continuously develop and implement "new efforts to improve quality and contain costs." Finally, they said the Congressional Budget Office "must project the bill to be at least deficit neutral over the 10-year budget window and deficit reducing thereafter."

As OMB Director Peter Orszag noted in an interview, the Reid bill met all those tests. The CBO projected that the bill would reduce the federal deficit by $130 billion over its first decade and by as much as $650 billion in its second. (Conservatives, of course, consider those projections unrealistic, but CBO is the only umpire in the game, and Republicans have been happy to trumpet its analyses critical of the Democratic plans.)  "Let's use the metric of that letter," said Orszag, who helped shape the health reform debate for years from his earlier posts at CBO and the Brookings Institution. "Deficit neutral; got that. Deficit-reducing second decade, got that. Excise tax: That was retained. Third is the Medicare commission: has that. Fourth is delivery system reforms, bundling payments, hospital acquired infections, readmission rates. It has that. If you go down the checklist of what they said was necessary for a fiscally responsible bill that will move us towards the health care system of the future, this passes the bar."

McClellan, the former Bush official and current director of the Engleberg Center for Health Care Reform at the Brookings Institution, was one of the economists who signed the November letter. McClellan has some very practical ideas for improving the Reid bill (more on those below), but generally he echoes Orszag's assessment of it. "It has got all four of those elements in it," McClellan said in an interview. "They kept a lot of the key elements of the Finance bill that I like. It would be good if more could be done, but this is the right direction to go."

Reid gave ground on one Baucus proposal that the economists identified as a priority-taxing high-end insurance plans. Like many health reformers, the economists who wrote Obama argue that such a tax "will help curtail the growth of private health insurance premiums by creating incentives to limit the costs of plans to a tax-free amount." Amid intense opposition from unions, Reid raised the thresholds at which family plans would face that excise tax from $21,000 to $23,000. But given all the pressure from labor, the more striking thing may have been that Reid didn't increase the thresholds even more; the CBO calculated the proposal, which the House excluded from its bill, would still raise $35 billion annually by 2019. "They held pretty strong," said one administration health care expert. "It's not like unions haven't been making the case that it shouldn't have been a much higher number."

On delivery reform, Reid stayed even closer to the Baucus blueprint. The Finance bill laid out a series of measures to change the way providers are paid for delivering care to Medicare recipients; the hope was that once Medicare instituted these reforms, private insurers would also adopt many of them. "The goal here is that the things we do in Medicare will translate over into the private sector, and there is quite a bit of historical precedence for that," said one Democratic aide involved in drafting the package.

The Baucus delivery reform ideas revolved around two central aims. One was to reward Medicare providers who deliver care more efficiently and penalize those that don't. The Reid bill upholds the major proposals Baucus offered to advance that goal. For instance, hospitals under current law must report on their performance in treating patients for common conditions like heart problems and pneumonia; under the bill, their Medicare payments, for the first time, would be affected by their ranking on those reports. Hospitals would also be penalized if they readmit too many patients after surgery or allow too many to acquire infections while in the hospital itself. Another provision would begin the process of applying such "value-based purchasing" toward other providers like hospice providers and inpatient rehabilitation facilities.

With physicians, the Reid plan takes a step back from the Finance Committee bill but still a long step beyond current law. The Finance Bill proposed automatic reimbursement reductions for doctors who order up the most care for Medicare recipients with similar medical and demographic characteristics. That was meant to respond to the research showing big disparities in spending on medical services for similarly-situated patients in different communities. But, Democratic sources say, that proposal ran into charges that it would promote rationing-and even function as "a death panel by proxy"-by compelling doctors to arbitrarily reduce care. So the final bill takes a less direct route toward a similar end. It requires Medicare to begin studying the utilization patterns of doctors participating in the program. And then it establishes a "values based payment modifier" that would, in a budget-neutral manner, increase reimbursements for physicians found to deliver high-quality care at lower cost, and reduce them for physicians at the other end of that spectrum. "It will, we believe, have the same net effect [as the original proposal]," said the Democratic aide. "It should change behavior around that threshold."

The other set of Baucus proposals were intended to promote more coordination among providers. These have survived almost verbatim into the final bill. The bill encourages groups of providers to establish doctor-led "accountable care organizations" to more comprehensively manage patients' care by allowing them to share in any savings for Medicare they produce. It also establishes a voluntary national pilot of "bundled" payments that would encourage hospitals, doctors and other providers to work more closely together. Another pilot program would test coordinated home-based care for chronically ill seniors.


Finally, the Reid bill maintains the two powerful institutions the Finance legislation proposed to promote these reforms and develop new ones. The one that's attracted the most attention is an independent "Medicare Advisory Board." Under the Senate bill, that board would be required to offer cost-saving proposals when Medicare spending rises too fast; Congress could not reject its proposals without substituting equivalent savings. Since the board would be prohibited from offering changes that raise taxes or "ration care," and since the legislation initially exempts hospitals from its recommendations, it could choose to promote the sort of payment reforms the bill establishes. (More prosaically it might also clear away some of the expensive coverage mandates that Congress imposes on Medicare under pressure from different elements of the medical industry). Given the limitations imposed on the commission, an equally important means to expand these reforms might be a second institution the legislation creates: a Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation in the Health and Human Services Department. Though this center has received much less attention than the Medicare Commission, it could have a comparable effect. It would receive $1 billion annually to test payment reforms; in a little known provision, the bill authorizes the HHS Secretary to implement nationwide, without any congressional action, any reform that department actuaries certify will reduce long-term spending. While the House bill omitted the Medicare Commission (a top priority for Obama) it included the innovation center.

No one can say for certain that these initiatives will improve efficiency enough to slow the growth in health care spending. Some are only pilots; others would affect only a small portion of providers' revenue from Medicare. CBO typically evaluates them skeptically: it generally scores little or no savings from most of them. Former CBO director Robert Reischauer, who signed the November 17 letter, says that's not surprising. "CBO is there to score savings for which we have a high degree of confidence that they will materialize," says Reischauer, now president of the Urban Institute. "There are many promising approaches [in these reform ideas] but you...can't deposit them in the bank." In the long run, Reischauer says, it's likely "that maybe half of them, or a third of them, will prove to be successful. But that would be very important."

While generally supportive of Reid's approach, McClellan, the former Medicare administrator under Bush, offered several specific ideas for strengthening it. He says the Senate should improve the capacity of HHS to more quickly evaluate whether the payment reforms are working, and also to provide data and technical assistance to new physician groups like the accountable care organizations that will be attempting to better coordinate care. "Ideally you'd both be able to tell the organizations involved and Congress what is working or not, and give the organizations the feedback and data they need to know whether they are doing a good job," he says. McClellan also believes that the plan needs sharper sticks-tougher penalties on providers who don't provide efficient and effective care. "There are a lot of carrots and not so many sticks," he maintains. Of course, tougher penalties might provoke more opposition from provider groups like hospitals and physicians now tenuously supporting the legislation.
[[McClellan stands at the forefront of centrist Republican thinking on health. Even the more ideologically conservative health care thinkers to his right generally don't oppose long-term reform ideas like bundling payments (John McCain promoted that during his presidential campaign). But they tend to view them as insufficient or tangential to the real problem. Their view highlights a fundamental difference between the parties' on health care. To save costs, Democrats mostly want to change the incentives for providers. Republicans mostly want to change the incentives for patients by shifting toward a model where insurance covers only catastrophic expenses and people pay for more routine care from tax-favored health savings accounts. In essence, the Republican view is that the best way to hold down long-term costs is to directly expose patients to more of them. Few Democrats accept that logic though and it has little influence on either chamber's legislation.

Another Republican cost-containment priority missing from the bill is meaningful medical malpractice reform. (The bill only encourages states to think about it.) Nichols, of the centrist New America Foundation, would like to see that included as well. Its omission is one reason he says he gives the plan a "b" rather than an "a"; the other is he'd like to see mechanisms to more quickly diffuse into the private insurance system reforms that show promise in Medicare. Democratic sources say a group of centrist Democrats led by Virginia Senator Mark Warner is trying to devise a package designed to do just that, perhaps by expanding the role of the independent Medicare advisory commission.

The attempt in all these ideas to nudge the medical system away from fee-for-service medicine toward an approach that ties compensation more closely to results captures how much the health care debate has shifted toward cost-control. So far, the rise in health care spending has proven almost invulnerable to every previous attempt to tame it, like the managed care revolution in the 1990s. Even if Obama signs into law a final bill embodying all these reform proposals, many skeptics wonder if they can bend, much less break, the seemingly inexorable increase in health care spending. Reischauer understands that skepticism, but isn't able to entirely suppress a kernel of optimism that this latest reform agenda may prove more effective than its predecessors. "One never knows whether we're turning the corner or if this is just playing the same old game for another inning," he says. "But I sense there's something different out there. I think the medical profession and its leaders have read the handwriting on the wall and are trying to evolve." If so, the ideas the Senate will begin voting on tonight could mark a milestone in that journey.

Comments (70)

Ron, we had lunch together a few years ago when you were in Texas getting background on George W. Bush. I found that away from the TV cameras you are just as smart and quick and thoughtful as you appear to be in public.
Please use your talent and brains to explain to people that we already provide universal health care to anyone who can get to an emergency room. We don't provide very efficient health services universally but we provide health care to anyone if you are very ill, very poor or very young. It is terribly inefficient if you are poor and in pain and it is very expensive. We already pay the bill.
We pay the bill already in higher taxes and higher insurance premiums and higher costs for medicine and procedures.
To delay or deny universal coverage is a guaranteed tax increase and a guaranteed premium increase for the insured.
If you don't believe me, pick an ER and drive there tonight. It won't be pleasant, It will be populated mostly by people of color. There will be crying children. There will be undocumented people. It will hurt like the dickens and be expensive as the devil.

Jason (Replying to: Mike)

Mike,

What happens if you have cancer? Can you go to an emergency room and get chemo or radiation treatment? Nope.

When you go to an emergency room for treatment, and are subsequently billed for services, there is no reduced premium - you pay the entire cost of treatment. That isn't universal health insurance - that's just a medical service that doesn't discriminate, but costs like the dickens.

Lars Poulsen (Replying to: Jason)

Actually, where I live, the hospital insists that anyone needing care on an emergency basis WILL be given necessary treatment. This occasionally includes admitting illegal immigrants to the cancer ward, and giving them any life-saving treatment they need, up to and including chemotherapy. It is not something they trumpet publicly, but it is part of their commitment as a non-profit charity to our community.

I should hope that this basic standard of human decency is universal in the world's wealthiest country, but I do not know how things work in other parts of the country.

BN (Replying to: Jason)

Jason,

I think your are missing part of Mike's point. Many of those people in the ER don't pay their bill. Instead, the hospital charges more to those who do pay their bills. So we end up with premiums that "cost like the dickens".

BN

keenobserver (Replying to: Jason)

Jason,

My basically indigent brother went to the emergency room in Bexar County, Texas (San Antonio) with a severe pain in his gut. The Northeast Methodist Hospital removed a grapefruit-sized tumor, diagnosed as Non-Hodgkins Lympoma, and kept him for several weeks without compensation. Then, he was referred to the University Medical Center for chemo, which went on for months and appears to have worked at this time. He applied and qualified for his chemo and follow up to be paid for by a County based service. His care is ongoing. (Prior to this series of events, he was treated for and cured of Hepatitis C, at no cost to himself.)

They don't bill him and they will never be paid because he is unable to and probably never will be able to. Methodist Hospital, the University of Texas, Bexar County and God knows who else paid the bill directly, and there is no doubt who paid indirectly.

And, there really is no line to be drawn between emergent care and other care, except for purposes of discussion.

One large problem with the Democratic Plan is that is does not address the problem Mike brings up about emergency rooms. In the 1980's The Supreme Court ruled that health care could not be refused to anyone regardless of nationality or ability to pay. he Democratic plan does not change or address this -- each US citizen will remain required to pay for the health care of every illegal alien here. And as Mike points out, illegals overwhemingly choose to go to emergency rooms across the country. They cannot be declined, and this policy will continue regardless of the outcome of the Democratic bill. Furthermore, since the Democratic bill limits that only US citizens will be required to enroll and pay into the plan, all illegals will continue to get free services. Plus, recent court decisions allow the right for illegals to sue in US courts if those services are deemed skimpy or inappropate.

Second off, even with his bill, poor people will coninue to over-use the emergency rooms for their everyday health problems. There is no incentive to stop them; although they may be enrolled in the public option they will not have to pay a premium or for individual services -- their costs will all be subsidized by middle class tax payers. Since the service is free, why go to some local schmo doctor when you can go to the local hospital, with its nicer TV, sitting area, and where you can get an expert to take care of you with the best equipment, not some ordinary GP. Plus the emergency room doesn't charge a co-pay. The GP probably will.

I'm also afraid that the Democratic plan only saves money on what Mr. Brownstein refers to as the curve -- the cost to the US Gov for healthcare, i.e. Medicare/Medicade. And this will be done primarily through cuts in service and limits to healthcare and medicine. Although Naveen claims that the Democrate are the only player, they are playing by proposing a extremely flawed bill that will not solve any existing problems, but instead only surrender the rights of the citizens of the USA to decide if they want health care and who they can get it from.

nolo (Replying to: CP)

CP, the only health care that must be provided (and is actually provided) to undocumented people in this country is a sufficient level of treatment to stabilize them in an emergency. That's it. So yes, they can't be tossed out of emergency rooms if they show up in need of immediate treatment for an emergency medical condition, but that's the only place (and the only situation) they can't be thrown out of. See The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA), 42 U.S.C. §1395dd.

Undocumented people are ineligible for Medicaid or any other federally-funded health care benefits. And even legal immigrants are excluded from certain benefits if they've been here less than five years. Get yer facts straight.

DaveinHackensack (Replying to: nolo)

Nolo,

It's not as if we deport them once they are medically stabilized and send the bill to their country's consulate. We let them out and if they get worse they come back to the emergency room again, and are treated again.

The key is to encourage them to leave before they get sick in the first place. The easiest way to do that is to require employers to ask all applicants for a government-issued photo ID as proof of eligibility to work in the U.S. In fact, most large employers already do this. We just need to start enforcing it among small businesses: restaurateurs, contractors, landscapers, etc. Start issuing stiff fines to employers who violate the law and they'll stop hiring illegals. Then most of the illegals will self-deport.

And that would, of course, fix my small employer's problems with health care insurance costs. You're not serious, are you? Let's leave aside the fact that the undocumented people employed in landscaping, service industries, et al. are hardly likely to be big consumers of expensive health care (dood, they're young and pretty healthy, or they'd be kicking over on your lawn or as they serve you your moo goo gui pan). The idea that foreigners are flocking over here to take advantage of our whiz-bang health care coverage for illegal immigrants is a total and complete fantasy.

Re: The easiest way to do that is to require employers to ask all applicants for a government-issued photo ID as proof of eligibility to work in the U.S.

We already do this. Haven't you ever filled out an I-9 for a new job and had to show your drivers license and SS card?

Hal Horvath (Replying to: CP)

"poor people will coninue to over-use the emergency rooms for their everyday health problems. There is no incentive to stop them; although they may be enrolled in the public option they will not have to pay a premium..."

This is mistaken. The overwhelming majority of insurance policies have a "co-pay" for an emergency room visit. For example, $100 is very common.

Once lower income citizens are enrolled in insurance plans (public or private) they will be covered, and then will have a co-pay obligation, which will be neither large nor small. $100 is no joke to low income people.

afoxtrot (Replying to: Hal Horvath)

Your arguement fails to recognize that 60-80% of ED visits are not for any sort of emergent problem, but hospitals are to frightened of EMTALA not to treat the patients. The low income people you describe as having difficulty paying the $100 theoretical co pay simply won't pay. Some perhaps because they can't, but most purposefully. They simply ignore their bills. ED co-pay obligations mean nothing, because they're not billed before treatment as in a phyisician's office. That's illegal. The bill goes to a non-existent address, or is ignored altogether. It's bad debt and is what causes public hospitals to go under.

As an ER nurse who sees, day in and day out, low income people who have a sense of shocking entitlement to healthcare in the ED, we've got to come up with a better way to devise incentives for keeping them OUT of the ED. They've got money for cigarettes, illicit drugs, and vats of Mountain Dew but will happily come to the ED for a pregnancy test or some tylenol because they "don't have the money right now but I've got Medicaid so I dont' have to pay." They don't. The rest of us do.

jegmont (Replying to: CP)

Your characterization of ERs with their "nicer TVs and sitting areas" is strange. I've been to ERs in small towns, small cities, big cities and the suburbs (not always as a patient, thankfully), and it has never been a quick or pleasant experience. They are awful and patients wait forever. I think you're right that some people will still use/abuse them, but for most people, once they figure out there is another option, I think most people would take advantage of it.

The illegal immigrant issue you raise is a tougher one, though. I'm glad our ERs turn away no one needing critical care, and I want it to stay that way, but I see your point.

Prakosh (Replying to: CP)

CP,

As most people here have already noted the emergency room care you depict is mythical. What is far more troubling is your insistence that some "others" either "immigrants or "poor people" will be getting health care "subsidized by middle class tax payers." In fact, most of the cost will be garnered from an increase in taxes on the upper classes and the elimination of fraud and abuse in Medicare, something many in our society have been clamoring for for years. But being honest about that new tax and the sources of the funding won't generate the kind of knee-jerk reaction from the middle class that you seek.

In fact, your post no matter how articulate and well-written is still nothing but a litany of anti "other" talking points. But underneath this post's literary qualities is something far more troubling.

I'm "poor." I've been "poor" my whole life. I am over 60 and have never been in an emergency room. So I wouldn't say I have over-used emergency rooms, would you? Nor am I going to "continue to over-use...emergency rooms." But if this bill passes and I get health care coverage before I have to get Medicare, I might get my first physical in over 30 years. And I'm betting they find something wrong, somewhere. And maybe I will even be able to get it fixed. Without that I will someday be in the emergency room. Or maybe when I finally get felled by some unidentified medical problem, I will just die, like the 44,000 Americans who do every year without ever making it to the emergency room. According to your world view, I deserve no better, I am "poor"!

No, the thing that is the most troubling about your post is that somewhere during your college education, they failed to teach you that "poor people" and "immigrants" are human beings; and that without health care those "other" people will die. What's really troubling is that as educated as you obviously are, you don't seem to realize or to be moved by that at all. That's troubling. For all your education and eloquence you're another child left behind. And because I feel your pain I'd rather be me than you.

Lenny (Replying to: CP)

This is just incredible to me. You are criticizing the Democratic plan for not allowing illegal immigrants to buy insurance, without subsidy, in the exchanges, when the only reason they did that is because of the Republican's constant demonizing of illegal immigrants! The main reason this bill is as flawed as it is is because of deeply cynical Republican obstructionism (death panels anyone?). Laughable.

pts (Replying to: CP)

The notion that illegals are an important part of the problem of the uninsured is rubbish. Per:

The Uninsured: A Primer (page 4)
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-05.pdf

"The majority of the uninsured (80%) are native or naturalized U.S. citizens."

Neither are illegals part of the budget problems for Medicaid and CHIP programs:

"Federal law bars undocumented immigrants from enrolling in Medicaid and CHIP coverage."

Re: but instead only surrender the rights of the citizens of the USA to decide if they want health care and who they can get it from.

Huh? I see nothing in this bill that would override religious objections such as those maintained by Christian Scientists or some Amish. They will not be hauled kicking and screaming to doctors. Nor do I see anything in these bills that would limit patient choice any more than it is already limited by existing institutions (HMOs and PPOs). In fact the healthcare exchange would make more choices for coverage available to people. Ideally we would end up expanding the exchanges to everyone and let the employer-benefit system wither and die thereby maximizing choice for everyone.

Correcting or clarifying what CP says, the way the ER is used, contrary to his statement, is for EMERGENT cases. I work in the surgery dept of a small non-profit community hospital, and am speaking from experience. If you are bleeding, unable to breathe, having a heart attack, have suffered a traumatic injury, yes, you CAN get immediate medical care w/o ponying up a copay. Care cannot be refused to those in immediate risk of loss of life or limb.

Anything else, guess again. That is why it is called an Emergency Dept. If you have an infection, receive a cancer diagnosis or have a major or minor joint injury that requires medical or surgical intervention needing to happen SOON but not immediately, you cannot and will not get the kind of care you need thru an ER. So a woman who finds a lump in her breast and needs a biopsy, and a lumpectomy/mastectomy, and chemo, will not receive that care from an ER. Nor will someone with chronic back or hip pain who needs surgery and physical therapy.

The MAJORITY of people who need access to health care for serious medical situations that are not immediately life-threatening, or those who suffer from chronic conditions like diabetes who need therapy or possibly surgery to amputate diseased toes, etc, will again NOT find this care available to them in an ER. These patients who lack insurance have to make some sort of financial arrangement with the hospital, or apply for & receive Medicare, Medicaid or another community-based health care assistance program (most of which are limited to geographic areas and by income) to get funds to cover their care. Many people working for small businesses make too much money to qualify for these, and thus when faced with cancer or gallbladder conditions or cardiac problems, have a very hard time making this happen financially, let alone soon enough medically.

My experience shows me that anyone who COULD get access to affordable care would, rather than combine worry over their medical condition with worry over how to pay for treatment. I suggest that those who believe illegals over-use these services, or that "poor people" will also over-use this alleged free full-access service, is ignorant of how ERs really work. And most Americans who are insured through their employers are one job loss away from joining the ranks of the uninsured. The reform presented by the Dems today is far from perfect, but it is a start, and one we all need to seriously consider.

Worried about the long-term costs? Feel this plan is far from perfect? Then get involved in crafting the solution. Because millions of Americans need - and deserve - access to reliable, affordable health care.

rick jones (Replying to: j9gast)

"After going without dialysis for 16 days, she walked into an emergency room near Birmingham, which found that the potassium levels in her blood were high enough to require immediate filtration. Eight days later, she did the same at another Birmingham hospital."

www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/health/policy/21grady.html?pagewanted=all

afoxtrot (Replying to: j9gast)

I disagree. I'm hardly ignorant of how ERs work. I'm a long time ER nurse and I see 60-80% of the visits we get (or annual patient visits are about in the 35,000 range) are for nonurgent issues. Patients are treated. Many patients have histories of visiting the ER between 30 and 200 times per year. Many are homeless, alcoholic and opiate or benzodiazepine seekers. These people are not looking for a rational source of healthcare.

I think a couple of you are overstating the significance of EMTALA, the act requiring ER's to provide stabilizing care. While it is certainly true that many people without the ability to pay show up at the ER, this is just one piece of the puzzle, and removing EMTALA wouldn't dramatically lower health care costs. While some of these people do not really need to be in the ER, many others do. Would we really like to see ER's checking for people's insurance when they show up in a life or death situation?

Who was it who coined the term "Its the economy stupid!" ? All this angst over over "affordable" health care and extending it to people without it is treating symptoms. If you want Americans to be able to afford healthcare, then you need a robust economy. Expanded, Gov't funded/mandated healthcare is not going to survive when the economy further erodes.

Taxing so called "Cadillac" coverage - is that not a form of rationing? It is deciding that someone has too much healthcare and seeks to take some away. We hear often about the rich and the evil of their overdeveloped sense of entitlement, yet here we are working towards "I was born, therefor someone has to help me pay for my medical expenses." Doesn't matter if they finished school, doesn't matter if they over eat, or smoke or drink to excess or ever did anything to demonstrate a contribution to society as a whole. Simply because they were born, they are entitled to medical care.

When I am paying for someone else's medical care by buying the goods or services they produce, I can opt-out by buying those goods and services from someone else, perhaps someone who isn't trashing their body. I cannot opt-out of paying taxes without going to jail. That almost sounds like extortion doesn't it? If I am paying for it do I not, perhaps via the Gov't, have some say? How far does that say into how one cares for oneself go? When will smoking be outlawed? Sure you might say that would be good - smoking is bad for you and those around you. Will it stop there? Sodas? Potato chips? Foie Gras? Beef more than once a week? 30 minutes of mandatory exercise in front of the view screen?

Yes, that does sound alarmist doesn't it, but go back through American history - has there ever been an *actual* rolling back of Government's role in the lives of citizens? All it seems to do is ratchet up with no going back.

Yes, it is facile for me to say this stuff - I do, for the moment, have a job that includes healthcare - perhaps soon to be sin taxed as "Cadillac coverage" for all I know. One that in a heartbeat could fly-off overseas, and one where my pay has already been explicitly cut 5%, and implicitly cut more over the years thanks to inflation and a flat salary. And that is nothing compared to what I have heard from my parents concerning the Great Depression so what do I know about life being hard? Good question. Perhaps that distance allows for greater circumspection. So, to further incense I will offer this observation:

Life as a free flock of sheep is not easy, it is quite hard. Predators hunting you daily, always having to move in search of food, little or no shelter from the elements. Turn the wrong corner or stray too far from the herd, and you get eaten by a wolf. Try to cross the river and you might drown. But you and the rest of your herd have a say in your fate.

Life as a flock of sheep under the control of a shepherd is rather easy. He has dogs to ward-off predators. The shepherd will guide you to green pastures and lead you across the river by a bridge. In the winter he may even give you a barn in which to shelter. Yet he and his dogs tell you where to go. Every spring he fleeces you for your wool. He carries-off some of your lambs, and in the end you become mutton.

Is life better as sheeple?

Tommer (Replying to: rick jones)

I think you have it backwards...The only reason why "Cadillac" plans exist today is due to the market distortions created by the government's antiquated and subjective tax exemptions for employer based healthcare spending. If you give the employee a raise, there's no tax beneift. If you spend more on his or her health benefits, it's a tax write off. As such, government has set up a perverse incentive for creating health plans that insulate health care recipients from the actual costs of the services they receive. Until we lift this distortion and get people to understand trade offs for even the most inexpensive and basic medical services, the whole healthcare industry will remain one big political football fought be dozens of intertest groups.

To say that we are taxing "Cadillac" plans is the same as saying we are digging a hole so that we can fill it up again.

In response to Naven, if we legalize the upwards to 30 million illegals in the country today, it will only invite another 30 million illegals to follow them. This is what happened when Ronald Reagan legalized the illegals in the 1980's: it didn't solve anything, the problem just got worse. As long as there are "magnets" in this country that make it advantageous to come to this country illegaly, then people will come to this country illegally.

In response to Nolo & jGast, the illegals get free health care by being admited to the hospital as self-pay. They have been instruced by activist groups (like ACORN but worse) who tell them to give phoney SSN, names, and addresses. They get billed, but they don't pay.

In response to Jo, you are right, nothing in the Democratic bill makes people take advantage of health care. Far from it, instead, in the case of Medicare/Medicade, they will be discouraged to use health care! But those Christian Scientists, Amish, et al will have to pay for insurance anyway. Insurance now becomes manditory, like car insurance. That is where a great portion of the proposed savings will come from. -- groups that do not purchase health insurance, like young people, will now be forced to.

Regarding the likelyhod that this bill will spur more choices in health care, I don't see how. Health care will become a comdity like car insurance already is in NJ. Every Auto Insurer quotes from the same price guides. There is no price differences between carriers. The private option will degrade into the same sort of plan, legislated by the federal overnment, who will impose their guidelines onto all of the health insurance policies.

My health insurance premium has tripled in the last few years. The last number I saw was that for the average person $1100 of his premium is used to cover the expenses incured from people without insurance. Now this premium will go up even more under the Democratic bill because scores of people defined by the overnment as underserved or underfunded will need to be subsidized.

I'm not saying anyone who really needs it should be denied health care. But its human nature to "game" any system and this system is being gamed on too many fronts -- especially trial lawyers, illegals, and fraudsters. Only when I see a health care bill that shuts down these groups will I be able to get behind it. Right now, the bill in the house not only represents a shift of money from earners to non-earners, with an increase in government jobs to provide oversight and management of this transfer, but worse an eroding of individual independence and civil rights.

lyndoc (Replying to: CP)

First it was 3 million illegal aliens in the US, not 30, that the Immigration and Reform and Control Act of 1986 was passed to provide access to legalization (only 2.7 chose to legalize). Current estimates put the total number of illegals in the US at about 9 million.
The law also made an effort to decrease the inflow of new illegals by penalizing any employer of more than 3 employees if they knowingly hired illegals. It didn't work because business owners liked the cheap labor that illegal aliens provided and the government did nothing to enforce the laws. As long there is a continuous source of that cheap labor driven by impoverished populations willing to risk life and limb for a better future immigration will continue to be an unsolved problem.
Hospitals do not allow aliens or anyone else to be treated for non emergency injuries as self pay. They will let you pay cash.
There are no Acorn like groups that encourage them to supply false info.
Aliens do use false SS# when hired because a number is now required. They pay into the SS system with every pay check and it is important to note do not get any money paid back out to them from that number. It can take several years for the government to figure out that the SS# is falsified. The alien will quit when questions are asked and move on to another job with another false SS#.
Insurance mandates are not something I agree with but the insurance companies love it as it provides them with millions of more clients. The Baucus bill written by the Senate finance committee were the ones that added mandates, pressured by the insurance industry and in an effort reduce the long term costs of health care. The insurance industry wanted to increase the fines levied against anyone who did not buy health insurance and at one time was trying to push Baucus into including jail time. Gotta love the insurance companies.
Health care insurance is already a commodity and the health of every american a for profit business.
The public option provides an exchange run by the government that is not for profit. This will provide health care coverage for those that cannot not afford or obtain insurance because of pre existing conditions. This competition will drive premiums down.
Health care reform will not erode your independence or civil rights. It will provide every American with the most basic right of decent affordable health care. NOW

There be crazy people on this thread.

slag (Replying to: nolo)

Yes. This appears to be the readership the Atlantic Politics Channel is aiming for. It's too bad, really.

None of these epicycles would be necessary if, as a society, we were willing to tax people who have more money than they need to ensure everybody had some basic level of decent life -- including healthcare. But we think we can survive without such an elementary level of social solidarity. That's simply false -- this society is dead but hasn't noticed yet. Too bad we'll pull the rest of the planet down with us in our individual greed.

DaveinHackensack (Replying to: janinsanfran)

Where ya been, Janinsanfran? We already have a highly progressive tax system, and we still can't afford our current health care spending on Medicare and Medicaid. It's not for lack of the political will to tax high earners to give goodies to everyone else. Even smart liberals realize that tack is a dead end. The next taxes are going to be on you.

DaveinHackensack,
It's a myth that this country has a "highly progressive" tax system...the very wealthy pay no more in taxes as a percentage of their income than the middle class. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/13/just-how-progressive-is-the-tax-system/

Perhaps this is because we have one political party in this country that seems to be concerned about no issue more than increasing the income of those who already have millions.

DaveinHackensack (Replying to: Justin)

Justin,

Objective data from the CBO trumps sophistry from a leftwing advocacy group.

DaveinHackensack (Replying to: Justin)

And also,

"Perhaps this is because we have one political party in this country that seems to be concerned about no issue more than increasing the income of those who already have millions."

By this are you referring to the $16 billion Goldman Sachs has set aside for bonuses under the current Democratic administration? Dems are perfectly happy to see the rich get richer, as long as they are Dem constituents.

Jon (Replying to: Justin)

Re: Dems are perfectly happy to see the rich get richer, as long as they are Dem constituents.

Wall Street is not a Democratic constituency. It plays both sides of the aisle quite deftly.

pts (Replying to: Justin)

DaveinHackensack:


You counter with CBO data that does not attempt to take into account state and local taxes that rely heavily on excise (regressive) taxes. The CTJ study includes these taxes and the results justify their conclusions.


Countering snark with snark:


Failing to actually read analyses with inconvenient results, but declaring it wrong anyway, is so Right.


Some perspective from an uninsured, self-employed, formerly middle-class, college-educated lady, mid-fifties, pays her own bills as agreed?

Went in w/ a cut finger that had to be amputated. Though we have a lg Hispanic population here, there was not even one in the packed ER! And maybe you'd like to see what it feels like to have failing kidneys and miss just 2 dialysis sessions while your body's poisoned?

Trying to verify the indecipherable hospital charges (previous visit in 1980's they billed 2ce for suture removal) I ran into a stone wall until the Cust Svce Rep muttered "After 5 requests I can...", presumably off the computer screen script. I made payments all during the stonewalling, but never should've! The correct amount is about $960, they charged $3925, paid $1275 before I smartened up. How do I know the right amount? Lemme try not to write a saga, but get ya'll doing some research.

The AMA maintains an alpha-numeric database of CPT codes that describe procedures & svces. Medicare/Medicaid base their HCPC coding system on the CPT. Ins co's also use CPT/HCPC to evaluate claims for payment.

The AMA tried to help balance quality care/patient cost/doctor income concerns by packaging or bundling services into comprehensive codes with one price (set by each payer) that includes everything typically used in, say, amputating the tip of a little finger and removing the nail bed. That'd include the necessary IV, nerve block, surgical tray, sterile drapes, suture set, etc.- all of which have their own CPT code, but can't be charged separately on a claim under pvt or gov't insurance plans, period.

But the hospital charged me separately and additionally! (Google "code gaming", "upcoding", "unbundling")Software automatically kicks out claims billed like this, but they figure (correctly) the uninsured are ignorant. CPT code book cost $2K/yr or so! You can find HCPC codes with a persistent search of the CMS (google it) website. I had to sign up with a paid coding service to prove the bogus coding on my bill. Didn't matter...Only a few states have outlawed this billing practice (not mine), but I'm still fighting even though I could pay today. Why?

IT DIRECTLY INCREASES MEDICARE & MEDICAID PAYMENTS TO THE HOSPITAL WHEN THEY OVERBILL THE UNINSURED, whether the bill gets paid or not! They get supplemental payments under DSH, outlier, Medicare & Medicaid co-pay bad debt and other programs in CMS regulations. Hosps report their costs (recently including capital costs, which is why the not-for-profits started building all those satellite operations around town) and charges (list prices). Go here to see how charges are manipulatively set by grabbing numbers out of the air: http://www.medicalpmrg.com/articles/rsv.html Google "cost-to-charge ratio","relative value weights", "medical billing advocate", "MedPAC".

Generally, ins co's pay claims based on 5-30% above Medicare reimbursement rate, depending on their market clout. Find-A-Code shows that rate for each CPT code, and whether it's chargeable with other given codes. So I took the Medicare price and doubled it.

Don't come back here with an ignorant comment that Medicare doesn't cover costs. And don't quote an opinion piece - go get the CMS education you need for yourself. It'll really open your eyes!

Bottom line: System-gaming by powerless individuals might add up to .001% of the fraud & abuse problem. Providers gaming it adds up to $100's of billions, and that doesn't include the criminal type outright fraud! Resent us if you want to, but you're just fooling yourself.


from today's NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/health/policy/21grady.html?pagewanted=2&_r=3&hp

“No place in Mexico would have offered dialysis for free,” he said, sitting in the spare apartment he shares with his girlfriend and their 13-year-old son. “It was better to be here. I am really grateful that this is possible in this country, because if I were in my country I would already have died”

That all changed on Oct. 4, when the strapped public hospital closed its outpatient dialysis clinic, leaving 51 patients — almost all illegal immigrants — in a life-or-death limbo.

Public hospitals have been left to provide costly treatments to nonpaying illegal residents who most likely could not have obtained such care in their home countries. American taxpayers and health care consumers have borne the expense.

"But most remain in Atlanta, taking full advantage of a last-minute offer by the hospital, in response to a lawsuit, to pay for three months of dialysis at commercial clinics."

"The CBO projected that the bill would reduce the federal deficit by $130 billion over its first decade and by as much as $650 billion in its second."

Does anyone have a link to the premium and spending projections for the first twenty years? I'd like to see how they fluctuate.

Consider this food for thought as well:

*Report Card on Single-Payer and Public Option
http://www.healthcare-now.org/report-card-on-single-payer-and-public-option/


And:

The public option ain't what it used to be
There's almost nothing left to give away in a healthcare compromise

By Robert Reich

Nov. 19, 2009 |

First there was Medicare for all 300 million of us. But that was a nonstarter because private insurers and Big Pharma wouldn't hear of it, and Republicans and "centrists" thought it was too much like what they have up in Canada -- which, by the way, cost Canadians only 10 percent of their GDP and covers every Canadian. (Our current system of private for-profit insurers costs 16 percent of GDP and leaves out 45 million people.)

So the compromise was to give all Americans the option of buying into a "Medicare-like plan" that competed with private insurers. Who could be against freedom of choice? Fully 70 percent of Americans polled supported the idea. Open to all Americans, such a plan would have the scale and authority to negotiate low prices with drug companies and other providers, and force private insurers to provide better service at lower costs. But private insurers and Big Pharma wouldn't hear of it, and Republicans and "centrists" thought it would end up too much like what they have up in Canada.

So the compromise was to give the public option only to Americans who wouldn't be covered either by their employers or by Medicaid. And give them coverage pegged to Medicare rates. But private insurers and ... you know the rest.

So the compromise that ended up in the House bill is to have a mere public option, open only to the ......

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/11/19/public_option/print.html

Nothing that Congress is doing will favorably bend the cost curve. You can't repeal the laws of economics. Insuring 32 million more people will create significant demand. Supply expansion is not part of any plan; in fact, reimbursement compression and other government-introduced market distortions are reducing interest in medical careers and driving doctors away from general practice and into specialties. Therefore, prices must rise, supply be restricted, or both. Doesn't anybody understand this?

Government has a miserable track record of controlling costs. The only government program ever to beat its forecast is the Medicare drug benefit enacted under BUSH, which created a true market and has cost less than expected.

This bill will be a budget buster, no matter what lies Congress and the White House tell us.

sweet.303 (Replying to: jpmurray)

JPMURRAY
Sorry, but I call BS on:
"The only government program ever to beat its forecast is the Medicare drug benefit enacted under BUSH, which created a true market and has cost less than expected."

Here is an excerpt from a April 2005 article from the Heritage Foundation:

"Since the Administration’s release of its latest 10-year cost estimates for the Medicare drug bill, many Members of Congress say they are in a state of sticker shock, and taxpayers are confused and suspicious. More recent estimates of the bill’s cost are far higher than the 2003 estimates on which Congress relied when voting on the bill.

When Congress enacted the Medicare Moderniza­tion Act (MMA) in November 2003, it relied on cost estimates by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO). The CBO estimated the 10-year cost of the drug pro­visions at $394 billion for the period 2004 to 2013.

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), the agency that runs the Medicare program, gen­erated its own estimate in 2003 and has continued to do so every year since the bill’s enactment. Though not made public until 2004, the CMS’s 2003 estimate was $534 billion for the period 2004 to 2013. In CMS’s February 2005 estimate, the 10-year price tag of the drug provision is $724 billion for the period 2006 to 2015."


This BUSH program is bloated and no where near where initial cost estimates. Plus, the program wasn't paid for so it added directly to the deficit.

The claim that reform absolutely must lead to increased costs is false. The current system could be replaced by a system much more efficient; i.e. as efficient as exists in most other advanced industrialized nations. In this case costs to the populace would actually fall. (Compare per-capita spending on health care for the US to any other advanced country of your choosing to see this.)


That said, you are right. Neither the House nor Senate reform bills come close to cutting the waste in health care finance and delivery. Right wing ideology (adopted by a lot of Democrats too) won't have it.


Until policy is based on hard economics and not on ideology that is largely myth, the US will have a second-rate health care system.

It feels like all the scare tactics employed for the past decades have convinced Americans that the only people who get benefits are those who don't deserve them. That so many of these posts deal with illegal aliens makes me think that people have become completely terrified that, "Some undeserving person out there is going to get something they didn't work for, and I have to pay for it." This seems to underlie many of theirs arguments and I hear it from people I talk to as well.

People seem to think that THEY will never get sick, THEY will never lose their job and their health care, only a BAD PERSON has bad things happen to them.

The dynamic seems to drive so many of our discussions today. How do we get back to talking about the real issues?

Marsonthehirose (Replying to: JoyousMN)

One of the downsides of positive thinking (i.e., neo-Calvinism) is that it only works for good people and only if they stay away from bad people.

The GOP Congress, Conserva Dems and Lieberman (Sen. from Aetna) has indeed become the best Congress money can buy! I do not think that many of us are really surprised by this but the question is "what do we do to overcome this long-time problem?"

Saturday night's Senate Vote Just to have a debate on Healthcare, was a small victory for the "agents of change" (democrats) and reflects very poorly on the state of the Party of No & Fear that they would not even allow a debate on this issue to move forward -- thereby belying the title of being the greatest deliberative body on earth!

It is noteworthy, that in the past, the Party of No & Fear, also fought against Social Security Reform and Medicare, and true to form or color, they are fighting against healthcare reform today! Yes, Social Security and Medicare are subject to abuse and fraud, but there is a reform in the healthcare bill to address this problem! Millions depend on Social Security and Medicare and they are glad that it is there. They want it improved upon not done away with. The naysayers have even tried to Sabotage the reform by introducing a phony abortion debate (we all know Nancy Pelosi will never allow the choice of having an abortion or not to become obsolete) , the other phony womens' issue (how time appropriate) introduced (I smell a rat) into the debate -- is that of Mammograms and the fear that we are somehow on our way to healthcare rationing. Yet most of us are already aware that we are experiencing healtcare rationing every time someone is denied healthcare because of a Preexisting Conditions or some other phony Excuse like they weigh too much, etc. The aforementioned debates are false and designed to produce fear, to immobilize and to paralyze the masses to do nothing. We must come to recognize that "Fear is the dark ones’ most powerful weapon against the light because the energy of fear not only forms a barrier between the consciousness and the soul, it refuels the darkness to keep it thriving." [Matthews Messages].

We must also recognize that "as money has in the past ministered to personal and family need, so in the future it must minister to group and world need. The time has now come when money must be re-valued and its usefulness channelled into new directions. The voice of the people must prevail, but it must be a people educated in the true values, in the significance of a right culture, and in the need for right human relations. It is therefore essentially a question of right education and correct training in world citizenship – a thing that has not yet been undertaken." [Money, The Medium of Loving Distribution, A Compilation from the books of Alice A Bailey ]

A public option, "Open to all Americans, such a plan would have the scale and authority to negotiate low prices with drug companies and other providers, and force private insurers to provide better service at lower costs. But private insurers and Big Pharma wouldn't hear of it, and Republicans and "centrists" thought it would end up too much like what they have up in Canada." [Robert Reich] And, if we have millions of people paying into one Plan, will make the premiums affordable to all.

Thank God for the Agents of Change who try to make a difference in the lives of ordinary human beings, whose intentions and Duty are to uplift the conditions of the people and to serve the people.... They try to raise the minimum wage, they try to extend unemployment benefits, they try to make sure there is clean water and clean air, but its hard and there is always a fight from the best Congress money can buy, whose mission is to stall and to obstruct and to incite fear! And, at this time in our history, like so much else, Healthcare reform is Crying Out for Change. And, as Science teaches us to do nothing and to be static only leads to decay -- only leads to death.

These Agents of Change must fight on with Joy -- for that is their protection and their strength because it invokes the higher Angels of their Being. They must not fracture in the heat of the battle but stand firm together -- for that too is their strength.

While a lot of what has been commented on above is true, some is not. Cost shifting due to uncompensated care provided by practioners is a major cost increase of healthcare across the country, but among health insurers there are other insidious costs passed onto the insured. Insurance industry executive pay and bonuses have increased at unprecedented rates in the last decade. Insurance company investments in real estate and the financial markets have hit hard times and premiums have been raised to offset those losses and maintain profits. The premium payer is being extorted to pay for bad investment decisions and undeserved increases in compensation. Insurance costs have far outstripped actual increases in care. The industry has monopolies across the country and no competition. Insurance costs will continue to skyrocket until the consumer has some bargaining power. That is why a public insurance option is vital. It throws competition into the mix. The public plan has presented is financed through premiums which are not discounted. There is NO free public plan as some have been led to believe.

definitelyjulia

Are there Cliff Notes for this article? Anybody care to dumb it up for the rest of us?

If there is republican support for malpractice reform, then it should be easy to pass that legislation by itself. I guess my question is, if there are two or three areas that everyone agrees on (legal reform, lifting interstate insurance restrictions, removing antitrust protection for insurers, etc), why can't those ideas be enacted now while debate continues on the areas of disagreement? In other words, why does everything have to be rolled up into an all-or-nothing bill?

Allowing politics to determine individual health and choice?

History is replete with examples of enthusiastic do-gooder’s leading the charge to control and enslave.

The article and most of comments reflect a lack of awareness of history, abuses of power and economics. The do-gooder mind set, we know better than the market and we will watch out for you.

Who will protect us from you?

This entire issue stinks.

Advocates for this grab for universal cradle to grave control do not have the constitutional right to do this and their idea’s of federal control is bankrupt from beginning to end.

It’s not about not having alternative ideas; it’s about protecting individual liberty. A concept that is not understood.

Lenny (Replying to: UnclePeter)

UnclePeter,

Do gooding is not a bad thing. You should try it some time.

Clearly you don't know much about economics if you think there's a "free market" solution to providing health care. It fits none of the requirements of a free market, never will, and therefore there is no free market cure.

Richard Barnhart (Replying to: Lenny)

Lenny,

Thank you for succinctly pointing out a critical fact that seems to have been lost in the debate on health care reform. Health care is clearly a segment of our economy that does not function as a free market. All efforts to treat it like one are destined to failure by spiraling inflation.

It is beyond me how anyone can look at the inflationary cost curve of our current failing system and not realize that the government needs to step in and do something.

Another important point at the core of the health care debate that needs to be clearly understood, is that the decision on whether or not to provide universal coverage is a moral issue. I firmly believe that, along with education and public safety, providing basic health care to all Americans is the morally correct thing to do.

Every other developed country in the world has made the decision that health care is a basic right. They have also shown us that there are many ways to design a system to accomplish this, and that universal coverage results in better national health outcome statistics, and that it can be done at a lower cost than our inefficient broken system.

One of the post earlier related the Irish immigration to the current Mexican immigration and thought the two were similar.

The Irish success story is a perfect example. Lets discover how they became the race they are today.

worked hard, was never handed anything, and carried their values with them.

The point is they had to work very hard to get where they are. Nobody says becoming successful is easy. There were no other choices but to work hard or starve.

It wasn't like if I don't work today, I will go down the street and grab some food stamps. Oh, and if I don't work tomorrow then maybe I will get on welfare and receive free housing. Oh yea, now if I get sick then I can receive free health care.

This is ridiculous and insults every successful immigrant ancestors that this is the road we are on.

We shouldn't give the poor everything they need to live comfortably for the countries sake. If they don't like it than don't come to our country. Our country are for hard working people.

We are holding the poor down. We are the reason the poor remain poor for generation after generation. The only thing they know how to do is to keep asking for handouts.

America was and still is the best country in the world because of our history of real tough times and a government that rewarded hard work, higher education, and freedom.

Nobody ever said being the most successful, most prosperous, and greatest nation on earth is supposed to be easy.

The amount of control the Government will have over our health care if this bill passes is extremely scary. Government has been the down fall of every great nation that has collapsed in the past.

One day people will be trying to escape our government because of the amount of power and control we have allowed them to achieve.

My niece lives in Boston. She has a kidney stone that is too big for her to pass. The doctors just gave her pain medicine for the first month. Then they dicided that a stint may help her pass the stone. She got sick and went to the doctor because she could not urinate. And when she did urinate it was bloody. The doctor told her that it was from the stint. Finally the doctor decided that they need to crush the stone. On the day of her surgery they could not crush the stone because she had a severe kidney infection. She has been battling this kidney stone for over 4 months.
I am no doctor but I do know that 4 months is too long for ANYONE to deal with a kidney stone. It is damaging her kidneys every day. If you are modeling our health care based on the type of care she has recieved, then we all may die just waiting for someone to take care of us.
The doctors in GA would never let someone go 4 months before doing something for the patient. I have a kidney problem and I am scared that I am not going to get the care that I have been recieving after the health care bill passes. I do not know where you get your numbers of people that want the health care bill to pass but you are not asking the real people that need medical help. You are taking peoples lives in your hands. What are you going to say to people when they do not recieve proper health care. I did not ask for a change. The health care in GA is the best you could ask for. I am sorry that other people live in a part of the United States that offer health care like Boston. Don't lump us all together. Not everyone wants this health bill to pass.

thinkingabovemypaygrade

Per this article.... The Federal GOV... with many massive new agencies needed will be sorta a FEDERAL SANTA CLAUS---with his many governmental ELVES smilingly ensuring that ALL will be Well ALL of US if only FEDERAL SANTA CLAUS and his many FEDERAL ELVES get to hand us the Gift of health care!!

Deep in the article ---for the few who will read the article to the end---
are some actual significant criticisms, comments like the tort reform issue...(the massive Dollar Devouring Billion Pound Gorilla in the room!!!) But I suspect many who are cheerleaders---will not bother.

(Seen on a Protestor's Sign: Healthcare will have the Efficiency of the US Post Office, the Solvency of Social Security, and the COMPASSION of the IRS>)

But then...maybe the US GOV will work magic with Health Care...unlike any other agency from the FEDS!!! I BELIEVE I BELIEVE say some...
but not me!

I am a 69 year old man that has been working since I was 12 years old. For over 57 years I have worked and dutifully paid my fair share of the taxes to the Federal Gov't and State and Local Agencies... As one of the many senior citizens living in Florida for the past 23 years, I have a great concern about the proposed cutting of the Medicare Advantage programs by 400 to 500 Billion dollars in order to pay for some of the new aspects of the proposed legislation for a Revised Health Care Plan...

If this means that the quality of medical care that I currently am receiving ( which is wonderful ), is in jeopardy and the premiums will increase then I have no choice but to oppose the pending legislation... The senior citizens on Medicare should not be the major target .... We as a group over many years have signifigantly contributed to the viability of this great nation and do not deserve this kind of treatment at this stage of our lives... This is our time to sit back and relax and enjoy some of the fruits of our labor with peace and dignity...

Have worked in health care many years and have issues with the assessment of "quality" and how that will be determined by an organization that, per the protester's sign noted in previous post, has "the efficiency of the Post Office, the solvency of social security and the compassion of the IRS."

High-quality health care can be (and is) delivered to patients who are noncompliant with the plans and recommendations provided to them, regardless of who is paying for it. This noncompliance occurs due to any number of factors but DOES affect outcomes. Are these the same outcomes that will be used to determine quality? And how expensive will it be to create or develop an agency to reign over "quality" management? What constitutes "quality"? And will documenting "quality" end up costing providers even more?

Very thorough analysis-a fair amount of wishful thinking for trusting that the governnment will execute as it intends, but thoughtful nonetheless.

But I really have to take issue with this statement:

(The public competitor to private insurance companies championed by the Left would affect who writes the checks in the medical system, but not what the checks are written to pay for.)

You can't be naive enough tho really believe that. We are a nation accustomed to getting what we want, where we want, when we want it w.r.t. medical care. This is fundamental to our culture for the 85% of us who have good health insurance. A public plan will be required to constrain access in order to control costs. And as the overseer of "qualified plans", this will change the way we ALL access care.

It may be the price that we have to pay to control cost, but it's disingenuous to believe otherwise the government won't dictate what is covered.

Reply to The Old Switcheroo. Your kiding yourself if you think illeagals pay income taxes. I work in construction and know alot others that do as well.Most get paid in cash and the ones that don't claim 9 dependents. So they very little in taxes. Its true that most don't file tax returns. And to say that the jobs that they do are menial labor is a joke as well. Some of theese people were making well over $100,000.00 a year. Not peanuts. They claim 9 dependents,use our emergency rooms for primary care,have their babies delivered for free,and then send the wife down to get section 8 housing and welfair.When a family member that is south of our boarder gets ill they bring them here to get medical.They are parasites, and know how to milk th sytem for all that it is worth. And what happens when thier fake socail security numbers come back at work? They show up monday with new names and cards. I know you doubt that ther is some that make that kind of money. This is how they do it. Lets say that they peice work framing. The crew leader is the one that talks to the framing foreman for prices. He sets how much everyone on the crew makes. Most of the crew is made up of guys that are new arrivals. H pays them min. wage. The rest goes to him. Then he taxes them for getting them a job. Most of the time it's $1.00 an hour. Thats only $40-$50 a week per guy x's 8-12 guys. This is on top of the $100,000 the company pays him. Some of theese crew leaders are nice enough to rent the crew rooms. Then they can charge them gas money to. And lets not forget the wife can pack your lunch for $6.00 a day. Theese guys live high on the hog. Off sweat of others. Now for my 2cents on this bill. I keep hearing 30 million unisured. This includes illeagals, but they are not getting covered. So that number drops to 18-20 million AMERICANS. Under this bill there will still be 12 million unisured. So that means that it will cost $800 BILLION to insure 6-8 million people for 5 years. That's only $20,000 a year per person.That sounds like a bargan to me. And we will pay for for 5 years before it gets used. Don't wory congress won't "barrow" from it in next few years. Because the money won't be needed to "fix" something now, you know anthor "crissis" that president has. WAKE UP. PULL YOUR HEADS OUT. The only thing the feds have ever done right is our military. They want to pay for it by taxing cadilac premiums. Who has theese...unions. RIGHT. This is a president that doesn't wipe his ass with out talking to iceu first. He said this himself at one of iceu's meetings. Check the White House sign in registry to see who has visted the president the most, its the head of the iceu. You know this is not going to happen. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So our debate on healthcare reform has shifted towards cost control. This seems to be the most immediate concern and I continue to see this debate above with dollar signs $$$ and talk of illegal immigrants.

Who cares. Immigrants in the end can help increase the pool in healthcare thus reducing costs by some. Illegal immigrants. Immigrants. Whatever. They won't fix our BILLION dollar problem.

Cadillac taxes? Sure. It's progressive and all, plus the majority of the public is upset that the successful doesn't pay their "fair share". Ever consider that some of those wealthier folk might have just worked hard than you? Sure some get breaks here and there, but worry about yourself. Progressive taxes are a simple idea and nice. True though, another money saving area, but really will it completely fix our system?

Both resolving illegal immigrants and Cadillac taxes are aimed at a easy to target minority of the population.

These are all issues that should be conglomerated to fix our great problem, but where most of health care expenditure costs come from are the END OF DAYS expenses. We need to trim these costs. I don't have numbers, but how about the fact that people will spend most of their money on preserving the last couple days of life? As people face death they will spend exorbitant amounts of money to see that next day.

Death is inevitable. Stop being scared. Save money here.

Medicare has started looking at some outcomes during inpatient hospitalization, falls, fractures, bed sores and has taken a position that it will not reimburse hospitals for those adverse outcomes associated with hospitalization. I do not know how that stance has progressed since I first heard that but I would be very interested in engaging the values based payment modifier model to see exactly what datapoints they would be collecting and how this data would be analyzed. What is on their minds?

Without line item agreeing with the current health care proposal(s), it is very clear there is TREMENDOUS inefficiency and waste built into the current system.

Since we understand the field of ophthalmology much better than any policy wonk/genius, wouldn't it be better to hear them out to see the mechanics of what they propose? What if they were open to modulating the value based modifier so that we could keep it "real".

If we do not engage them will we lose out on an opportunity to showcase our efficient, medically effective, safe, and cost effective field? That makes one tremendous assumption; that the change agents truly want to provide better more cost effective care and are NOT interested in rationing, stifling innovation, and medical advances. Here is one quote from that Brownstein article:

The current plan requires Medicare to begin studying the utilization patterns of doctors participating in the program. And then it establishes a "values based payment modifier" that would, in a budget-neutral manner, increase reimbursements for physicians found to deliver high-quality care at lower cost, and reduce them for physicians at the other end of that spectrum.

I do think this plan is extremely ambitious and unnecessary. Medicare should study utilization patterns and look at outcomes. Ambulatory surgery centers call this benchmarking and are already hard at work trying to operate their ASC's more safely,efficiently, and cost effectively.

If history is any guide, the wonks and boy geniuses will get some areas right and other's terribly wrong. It is pretty obvious to me many of the inefficiencys such as over-utilization of inpatients serices and ER care are the direct result of federal laws previously implemented such as HCQIA ( http://www.hcqia.net/ ) and EMTALA ( http://www.emtala.com/ ). When these policy geniuses craft implement these policies the true insiders will negotiate the minefield fairly well.

It will always ultimately be the patient that suffers while doctors figure out a way to survive.

Sam Omar MD

This is exactly the kind of system and change we need in this nation. As of now it is self serving and corrupted with political pocket stuffing. It is is no wonder the World Health Organization ranked the US as #37 in health care. http://www.ourblook.com/component/option,com_sectionex/Itemid,200076/id,8/view,category/#catid107
To get the government to treat a universal plan, like this co-op that you speak of, would be the most ideal system structure for all Americans who fall between middle and lower income.